Christians: Why aren't you Muslim?

[sojourner]

but where is the tolerance when a muslim does something wrong? They are punished by their muslim brothers rather then shown mercy and forgiveness. They are publically whipped, some do not survive the whipping. They are beaten and even stoned to death for committing wrongdoing even if they are pleading for their lives and for forgiveness

this is also what makes christianity so much more superior. Mercy and love rule in christianity. Rather then punishment, forgiveness is shown to those who repent. When islam learns this, i might change my view.

Again, I think "superior" is a term that puts you on shaky ground. What works for one is not necessarily what works for another. If it's true (which I doubt) that forgiveness is shown to those who repent -- what about those who don't repent? Where's the mercy in that case? For me, that's the twisting of Xy that makes it such a dangerous pop-expression. Xy is only Xy if forgiveness is forgiveness for all. For me, repentance follows forgiveness -- not preceding it. God always acts first. Forgiveness is God's act. Our response is repentance.

 

[Pegg]

Again, I think "superior" is a term that puts you on shaky ground. What works for one is not necessarily what works for another. If it's true (which I doubt) that forgiveness is shown to those who repent -- what about those who don't repent? Where's the mercy in that case? For me, that's the twisting of Xy that makes it such a dangerous pop-expression. Xy is only Xy if forgiveness is forgiveness for all. For me, repentance follows forgiveness -- not preceding it. God always acts first. Forgiveness is God's act. Our response is repentance.

well you dont ever see mobs of christians chasing other christians down the street and beating them up for doing something wrong.

You are right to say that it is God who forgives. But you also must remember what Jesus told his disciples:
“FORGIVE whatever you have against anyone; in order that your Father who is in the heavens may also forgive you your trespasses.” Mark 11:25

we must forgive each other first...then we will have forgiveness ourselves. God has not set us up as judges over one another...only he is the judge....but its not like that in Islam. In Islam, its the people themselves who met out the justice and punishment on wrongdoers.

 

[sojourner]

well you dont ever see mobs of christians chasing other christians down the street and beating them up for doing something wrong.

No, they'd rather just lobby to curtail the civil rights of homosexual couples...

we must forgive each other first...then we will have forgiveness ourselves.

That would place the onus for forgiveness upon us -- as well as the impetus, which is always rightly God's. We forgive because we stand forgiven ourselves.

but its not like that in Islam. In Islam, its the people themselves who met out the justice and punishment on wrongdoers.

Funny ... it works out that way in praxis for a lot of Xians too. Fundigelicals have mainly condemned homosexual couples, when God would never do such a thing.

 

[Pegg]

No, they'd rather just lobby to curtail the civil rights of homosexual couples...

That would place the onus for forgiveness upon us -- as well as the impetus, which is always rightly God's. We forgive because we stand forgiven ourselves.

Funny ... it works out that way in praxis for a lot of Xians too. Fundigelicals have mainly condemned homosexual couples, when God would never do such a thing.

christians are not supposed to meddle in politics at all...any who do are not really practicing christianity correctly and are terribly mislead.

God will deal with all manner of sins in his own time and his own way and he has not given christians the responsibility to enact laws on anyone. When christians do get involved in political matters, then they are stepping outside the realms of christianity because chrsitianity is neutral.

 

[Wombat]

well you dont ever see mobs of christians chasing other christians down the street and beating them up for doing something wrong.

Oh Pegg...you see just that if you read any history text and it does not have to be 'ancient' history...there are plenty of examples of Christians not only "chasing other christians down the street and beating them up for doing something wrong" but chasing them right out of the country of origin.

Please...try to look at it from the perspective of cultural development....There was a time when the Islamic world constituted the pinacle of civilization- great cities of hundreds of thousands, paved and lit streets with sewer systems below, high art and architecture, libraries overflowing with knowledge from all over the world, what we know of the Ancient Greeks-our Western Democratic tradition was preserved for us by Islam....Science, Astronomy, Medicine, Mathematics....astounding advances.

London at this time? Still wollowing in the mud....a barbaric backwater.

It was across the back of Islam and standing on the shoulders of its achievements that we in the West go to the position we are now in. Has Western Industrial Technological development placed us in a more advanced and comfortable position than many Islamic nations? Sure.....'Civilization' is a game of leap frog and it's our turn to be out in front.

But we only got here over the back of Islam....and along the way we did just as much if not far more damage to fellow Christians and others.

I just don't see any point looking down on or assuming "superiority" over those who are further back down the developmental road than we are....especialy if they built the road we are on.

 

[Pegg]

Oh Pegg...you see just that if you read any history text and it does not have to be 'ancient' history...there are plenty of examples of Christians not only "chasing other christians down the street and beating them up for doing something wrong" but chasing them right out of the country of origin.

Please...try to look at it from the perspective of cultural development....There was a time when the Islamic world constituted the pinacle of civilization- great cities of hundreds of thousands, paved and lit streets with sewer systems below, high art and architecture, libraries overflowing with knowledge from all over the world, what we know of the Ancient Greeks-our Western Democratic tradition was preserved for us by Islam....Science, Astronomy, Medicine, Mathematics....astounding advances.

i agree that there are some amazing things that have come from the arab world, dont get me wrong on that. But im not talking about secular things. Im only specifically referring to islams religious legal system which enacts itself in corporal punishments carried out by the people.

in our culture its called 'vigilantism' and thankfully it is against the law here. Its also not a part of christianity and while its true that mobs of people did attack others (being a JW i know all too well how our members have been mistreated over the years) it doesnt mean it is endorsed or demanded by christianity. Show me anywhere in the Christian Greek scriptures where corporal punishment is a requirement for believers or even non believers. Im sure you wont find any passages to that effect.

 

[Bismillah]

I see pegg you can go so far as to understand centuries of works on Shariah and then call it

in our culture its called 'vigilantism' and thankfully it is against the law here.

Which quite effectively shows the sum total of your knowledge, you just demonstrated the antithesis of Islamic law.

 

[Pegg]

I see pegg you can go so far as to understand centuries of works on Shariah and then call it Which quite effectively shows the sum total of your knowledge, you just demonstrated the antithesis of Islamic law.

im just saying, the equivalent in our society is illegal because there is no religious requirement to enforce corporal punishment on a wrongdoer in christianity.

and i can assure you that if a muslim community in australia tried to whip a fellow muslim for some misconduct, they would quickly be arrested because it is illegal to assault anyone for any reason.

 

[Bismillah]

im just saying, the equivalent in our society is illegal because there is no religious requirement to enforce corporal punishment on a wrongdoer in christianity.

That's because there is no political system in Christianity, in my view something that is a major fault.

You are against corporeal punishment but believe in punishment after death? Do you understand the irony of thus? Do you also understand that for every physical punishment inflicted on a man in this world, his sins are wiped clean metaphysically and the frame that ultimately matters much more he is absolved of his wrong doings? Do you also understand that repentance and sincerity in belief is the underlying theme of Islamic law?

and i can assure you that if a muslim community in australia tried to whip a fellow muslim for some misconduct, they would quickly be arrested because it is illegal to assault anyone for any reason.

And I can assure you that it is not the concept of Islamic law, would you be interested on a link concerning the punishment of whipping?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/113575-rape-adultery-islam.html#post2413692

 

[Sum1sGruj]

That's because there is no political system in Christianity, in my view something that is a major fault.

You are against corporeal punishment but believe in punishment after death? Do you understand the irony of thus? Do you also understand that for every physical punishment inflicted on a man in this world, his sins are wiped clean metaphysically and the frame that ultimately matters much more he is absolved of his wrong doings?

Muslims believe in a forceful hand and all that does is keep the pot stirring, which makes vigilante justice double edged. Muslims think that a prophet would come along and contradict practically all of Jesus' teachings, and yet still hold Jesus as a divine being. Secular laws hide the face of trouble, Islam shows it. What's the difference?

 

[Pegg]

That's because there is no political system in Christianity, in my view something that is a major fault.

political systems are administered by people...people with faults, people who are corruptible and people who often do things out of their own interests. Christianity is administered by Jesus Christ alone. He oversees his church from the heavens...thats why there is no political system in christianity. Jesus is King, no infallible man.

You are against corporeal punishment but believe in punishment after death? Do you understand the irony of thus?

i know that some teach this idea, but the bible does not contain the idea of any punishment after death. The bibles only teaching is that, death is the punishment for sin.
Romans 5:12 “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

and the bible also informs us that death is a state of unconsciousness...so there can be no suffering in an unconscious state:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

Do you also understand that for every physical punishment inflicted on a man in this world, his sins are wiped clean metaphysically and the frame that ultimately matters much more he is absolved of his wrong doings? Do you also understand that repentance and sincerity in belief is the underlying theme of Islamic law?

i was not aware that the islamic view was that physical punishment is what abolves one of wrongdoing. I am however aware that the bible writers taught that repentence required one to 'turn around' from the bad course. So if one stops whatever sin they are committing and refrains from it, God will forgive them as this verse shows:

Acts 3:19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah 20 and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time

this seems to me like a much more humane and merciful way to have ones sins forgiven.
Tell me, do you think a merciful God would act mercifully when one is alive, or only after ones death?

And I can assure you that it is not the concept of Islamic law, would you be interested on a link concerning the punishment of whipping?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/113575-rape-adultery-islam.html#post2413692

I did read your thread a while back and also read the news reports on the incident with the girl who was raped. I cannot see any mercy in making her father whip her until she died. There was a picture of that poor father afterward and the pain in his eyes was heartbreaking to see. Even if that girl was guilty of adultery (which i dont believe she was) where is the mercy in making her own flesh and blood whip her? Not only did she die afterward, but im sure that father has died a million deaths inside himself.

im sorry, i just cannot bring myself to accept the way of islam when it comes to crime and punishment. If muslims truly believed their God is merciful, why dont they also act with mercy?

 

[Bismillah]

political systems are administered by people...people with faults, people who are corruptible and people who often do things out of their own interests. Christianity is administered by Jesus Christ alone. He oversees his church from the heavens...thats why there is no political system in christianity. Jesus is King, no infallible man.

Except environment goes hand in hand with creed, if one lives in a faulty environment his religion is threatened. Man made governments are inherently flawed, agreed, that is why Islam holds on to the nobler ideal of divine law.

i know that some teach this idea, but the bible does not contain the idea of any punishment after death. The bibles only teaching is that, death is the punishment for sin.
Romans 5:12 “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

and the bible also informs us that death is a state of unconsciousness...so there can be no suffering in an unconscious state:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

So then there is no social justice for wrongs committed in this world, if we agree with your views on Christianity? That in itself, is unjust.

i was not aware that the islamic view was that physical punishment is what abolves one of wrongdoing. I am however aware that the bible writers taught that repentence required one to 'turn around' from the bad course. So if one stops whatever sin they are committing and refrains from it, God will forgive them as this verse shows:

A noble virtue that is also taught in Islam...Physical punishment is for those who do not repent and those who commit a sin and keep silent about it and repent sincerely are absolved for it, the concept of Tawbah.

"Do not despair of God's mercy; He will forgive you of all your sins".Qur'an (39:53).

"And He wishes to forgive you" Qur'an (4:146).

"Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

Allah loves those who repent the most as they seek mercy and to change themselves out of their own will, such that their previous sins are recorded as meritorious deeds.

this seems to me like a much more humane and merciful way to have ones sins forgiven.
Tell me, do you think a merciful God would act mercifully when one is alive, or only after ones death?

I think it is the epitome of mercy to do so at both times.

I did read your thread a while back and also read the news reports on the incident with the girl who was raped. I cannot see any mercy in making her father whip her until she died. There was a picture of that poor father afterward and the pain in his eyes was heartbreaking to see. Even if that girl was guilty of adultery (which i dont believe she was) where is the mercy in making her own flesh and blood whip her? Not only did she die afterward, but im sure that father has died a million deaths inside himself.

Pegg with all due respect you can't fool me by saying that you read my thread and then saying that the death and bloody whipping of this girl was seen as an act of mercy or ever legal in Islamic jurisprudence. Please, I do not wish to lie or attack your faith but do not say that you read my posts when you clearly did not.

 

[Pegg]

[/i] So then there is no social justice for wrongs committed in this world, if we agree with your views on Christianity? That in itself, is unjust.

there is only one form of punishment in christianity that God has given to man to oversee...its called disfellowshipping:

1Cor 5:11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

God set the example for disfellowshipping when he evicted Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. Being evicted from the congregation is the only punishment that God endorses for wrongdoers

A noble virtue that is also taught in Islam...Physical punishment is for those who do not repent and those who commit a sin and keep silent about it and repent sincerely are absolved for it, the concept of Tawbah.

im not sure i understand what you mean here...can you clarify. Do you mean that a person who "commits a sin but keeps silent about it and repents sincerely" will be absolved of it?

I think it is the epitome of mercy to do so at both times.

ok so what does this mean in terms of a person who is physically punished for wrongdoing...is it merciful to inflict pain on someone for the sake of a punishment?

Pegg with all due respect you can't fool me by saying that you read my thread and then saying that the death and bloody whipping of this girl was seen as an act of mercy or ever legal in Islamic jurisprudence. Please, I do not wish to lie or attack your faith but do not say that you read my posts when you clearly did not.

i did read it, its just that the real life application of the whippings are anything but merciful.
Do you understand the meaning of mercy? It is literally an expression of kind consideration or pity that brings relief... you cannot cause someone pain and call it mercy because pain is actually the opposite of what mercy is.

 

[Badran]

Being evicted from the congregation is the only punishment that God endorses for wrongdoers

All and any type of wrong doers?

 

[sojourner]

That's because there is no political system in Christianity, in my view something that is a major fault.

But yet Islam isn't "culturally-based."
Politics are also part of culture.

 

[sojourner]

Christianity is administered by Jesus Christ alone.

No it isn't. If it is, it isn't Xy. God always works through human agency. The Church is the Body of Christ. The Church is the assembly of the people.

 

[Bismillah]

there is only one form of punishment in christianity that God has given to man to oversee...its called disfellowshipping:

So you decide who is and who isn't a Christian....

I reserve that judgment to God.

1Cor 5:11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

Of course that rights no wrongs nor does it provide any sense of social justice.

im not sure i understand what you mean here...can you clarify. Do you mean that a person who "commits a sin but keeps silent about it and repents sincerely" will be absolved of it?

Yes...

ok so what does this mean in terms of a person who is physically punished for wrongdoing...is it merciful to inflict pain on someone for the sake of a punishment?

It is not pain for the sake of punishment, that is sadistic....

Physical punishment can only be imposed by the strictest of measures and then were rarely ever utilized but used as a policy of effective deterrence, it was much more successful in harboring a society of piety as opposed to that of moral degeneration.

And yes, it is infinitely more merciful to bear the trivial wounds of this world to be absolved of them much more important transgressions of the hereafter.

i did read it, its just that the real life application of the whippings are anything but merciful.

Bangledesh is anything but Islamic....they legalize prostitution there apparently.

Do you understand the meaning of mercy? It is literally an expression of kind consideration or pity that brings relief... you cannot cause someone pain and call it mercy because pain is actually the opposite of what mercy is.

As I stated in the thread, the concept of physical punishment is one that is highly dubious and even then hardly ever called upon to be enforced. Also it is a manifestation of mercy if humans are forgiven for their sins in the dunya rather than on al-yawm ad-din

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Disfellowshipping isn't something that bars you from God's graces. It is meant to keep people from rowing in circles with others who will disrupt them. It also isn't social damnation. When one changes their ways, one can rejoin. After all, we are all sinners and if wrong doing is that exact, then let us all spread to the corners of the world.

That is the charge of Christians for the sake of others. Muslims would see to punishing others regardless of their belief on accord of God, which is something I have always had a problem with. It doesn't do any good for the long run. War will just continue to be a fahionable approach in leiu of God as it was in the past.
Even if Muslimship were to reach the world over, you will see how religious tyranny will just overturn just as any other tyranny.

 

[Pegg]

All and any type of wrong doers?

only those who are unrepentant. If a christian does not stop doing, whatever bad thing they are doing, they must be removed from the congregation and the members of the congregation are to cease speaking to that person.

it is a form of punishment that can bring a person back to God... and that is the aim of the act of disfellowshipping.

 

[Pegg]

No it isn't. If it is, it isn't Xy. God always works through human agency. The Church is the Body of Christ. The Church is the assembly of the people.

back in the first century, it was the holy spirit that directed the apostles. Remember the account about the choosing of the 12th apostle? The 11 apostles did not cast a vote to choose a 12th apostle...the holy spirit chose Mattias by 'lots'

it shows the early church was certainly being led by holy spirit...not by men.