Christians: Why aren't you Muslim?

[sojourner]

And yet apparently a "part" of God is not divine because "Jesus clearly wasn't, as I said the moment you confine God to a mere mortal shell you have placed upon yourself a heavy burden."

That is a constraint of language. I like how you ignore that the exact same rule is applied for English as well with the dictionary link

"This correlates with English usage as well

He - definition of He by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

2. Usage Problem Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: "He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence" (William Blake)."

There would be no reason for Prophets and Scripture if God would show himself as a human but if he were to do that he would essentially cut off his transcendence.

This is why Christianity always makes itself susceptible to things such as the Stone Paradox

And I suppose your devaluing of scripture is not surprising given the changing over time of it...

He couldn't even lift a house! He sounds like a Meccan Idol!

No, you are comparing two things. I am comparing comparative theology and the idea of God somehow limiting himself into human form and you are comparing divine miracle. Divine miracle comes from an authority who is not confined to the mortal world, I could reply that no more ridiculous of the dead coming back to life but I know this is a divine miracle from Allah.

Humanity is reconciled? Really?! Then why is there so many immoral plagues sweeping the world. If this is humanity at harmony with God....

Actually it was word play to poke fun at the idea of a man being God, Shakespeare used such rhetoric you should try it. It also means "qualities"

But Jesus was nailed to a cross! He died! He was born! That is omnipotence? Maybe I am omnipotent...

Ah yes you have adequately expressed the trinity

It is doubly hilarious that you are telling me that 9/11 is an indicator or reflection on Islam!

Anxiety? Feeling insecure?

According to you God came and he went. But we are not reformed. Furthermore this entire business of dying for my sins is odd, what sins did I commit before I was born? I am sorry to say that living is not a sin it is a blessing, it is how you act that determines the merits of your life. Because if I die right now I will go to hell according to you, why couldn't Jesus have did for all my sins, instead of the illogical and unfair sin levied upon my birth ]:

BINGO! The key being that Divinity shifted into mortality in Christianity! To reconcile the idea of God within the realms of man he must lose his divinity because no man can "subjectively understand God". To subjectively understand Jesus debunks any idea of omnipotence. Thanks Kwame.

Humanity reforms, that is obvious. There are obvious examples of differences among Humans in their piety and taqwa. The Prophets set the spiritual plane of reformation, to which we ascribe to but can never match. The idea of "reconciling" humanity of God only speaks of associating oneself with God. This leads me to think that once a man dares to strip Allah of his tawhid he has no qualms about associating himself with him!

“That is because Allaah He is the Truth (the only True God of all that exists, Who has no partners or rivals with Him), and what they (the polytheists) invoke besides Him, it is Baatil (falsehood). And verily, Allaah He is the Most High, the Most Great”[al-Hajj 22:62]


I am doing fine thank you


I suppose it is a premise in Trinitarian beliefs to lack humility



Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they call Allah in humility. When the suffering reached them from Us, why then did they not call Allah in humility? On the contrary, their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them. (Al-Anaam 6:42-43)



In the past, there have also been those who have been haughty, proud, and arrogant. They forgot their fallibility and this pride blinded them to the reality of creation. Of place and purpose of truth and action and they lived senseless meaningless lives indulging themselves in narcissistic pleasures all the while declaiming the harmony and totality of Allah.



Call on your Lord with humility and in private, for Allah loves not those who transgress beyond bounds. Do not mischief on the earth, after it has been set in order, but call on Him with fear and longing in your hearts, for the Mercy of Allah is always near to those who do good. (Al-Araf 7:55-56)


Successful indeed are the believers, those who humble themselves in their prayers... (Al-Muminoon 23:1-2)


The first step to belief and reform is to lower humble oneself. Islam is about submission, submission to truth and rejection of the carnal and base desires of this world. Submission in act, in dress, in finance, and in supplication. When the reality of the order of this world is understood we can realize and realign our actions to walk the path ordained by God.


The subject of my worship deserves to be worshiped


"I alone am Allâh. There cannot be, is no other and will never be One for worship but Me." (20:14)

I am not required to explain and parse together the conflicting ideas of trinitarian beliefs and finally realize, as you stated

Clearly monotheism can never be reconciled with shirk.

Thanks for the replies sojourner, I enjoyed it really.

I'm tired of you twisting what I say. If you don't wanna believe in the validity of the Trinity, that's OK. You're a muslim -- you have that privilege. But for my part, the Trinity is at the foundation of what is real about the world. That's why I'm a Xian, that's why I could never be muslim.

There is nothing "superior," or "better," or "more informed," or "more spiritually deep," or "more logical," or that "makes more sense," or "points us more toward God," or anything else remotely special or compelling about Islam. It's no better nor worse than any other religion. I'm glad you like it. More power to ya.

 

[Tathagata]

I feel that one has a more personal and intimate relationship with God than in Islam, and that is why I choose to follow it. The God of Christianity gave his own Son to die for us, and I believe this further shows his close relationship with humankind.

He asked why you think Christianity is more PLAUSIBLE than Islam. He didn't ask why you LIKE Christianity better than Islam. Just because Christianity offers a more personal relationship with God doesn't mean it's more plausible.

The question wants to see why people would choose Christianity over Islam; not if people found either of them credible.

Again, you got the question wrong. He did in fact ask why Christianity is more plausible.


.

 

[Muffled]

Really? If Jesus was at point A then he logically cannot be at point B. Confining Allah within the confines of the human realm is to limit his transcendence and thus an insult to his tawhid that leads into shirk.

Allah need not be confined into human form, he already exists and manifests his presence on every scope humanity can comprehend and far beyond that. He is already, as you said, immanent.

No, it does. Dividing God into himself and "his son and the holy spirit" is quite apparent demarcation of Allah's unity.

As I said there is no reason to as his presence is already within the most intimate confines of humanity. It reconciles humanity in that it attempts to place Allah upon mortal realms and seeks to explain that which cannot be explained.

That is completely wrong, for Allah to be subjective requires, at base minimum, the ability to comprehend him. That you attempt to place yourself upon that pedestal speaks volumes about what happens once Allah is attempted to be confined within the worldly realm for reflection. I am sorry if you cannot express yourself clearly enough for me to "get it" but you have not done anything to clarify my apparently wrong views.

Confining Allah into human form places limitations upon him, the moment God "becomes human" he cannot be considered God.

I am not "banging my head" rather you are unable to explain clearly why you, time and time again, limit the omnipotence of Allah. His presence permeates all, to think that he needs to condense himself and confine himself in the form of a mortal is ridiculous.

The fact is humanity doesn't need to be "reconciled", as it can never approach a plane coming close to that of divine omnipotence. It can reform itself instead and that has already been proven through the means of a Prophet with the vehicle of divine scripture.

I understand it is frustrating, the trinity makes no sense at all if one seeks to reconcile the limitations placed upon him when considering the totality of the creator.

When Jesus is at point A, all the other points are inhaibted by Allah also. By restricting God to a body you restrict His transcendance. Allah is not confined within the body. Allah is in the body controlling it as a human would and He is outside the body as well. The dichotomy is represented as the Father and Son but that dichotomy is just a matter of reference to what God is doing. If He answers a prayer in New York City and another one in Cairo, there is a dichotomy based on what God is doing but it is the one and same God.

Allah doesn't need human experience but people need Allah and imminence can't be touched.

Even if this sentence made sense it would still be in error. God can't be divided.

This is not the case. God will not invade a person without the person's permission. He will observe but He will not interfere except in the case of King Nebuchadnezzar who God was punishing for his pride.

Do you think you can define God out of existence? God does not need to incorporate all of His abilities and qualities. He is not less God because of it any more than your spirit is less you because you are in a body. If God were confined in the body it would be a different story but He isn't.

There are no limitations, so the trinity makes sense.

On this you are in error. Through the Paraclete a person is able to approach divine omni-potence. Reform will never come as close as the Paraclete. Any Christian devoted to Jesus will far surpass that prophet.

 

[thespiritoftruth]

when one can see ones self for who and what they really are and where their life force comes from then they can begin to comprehend the "I will what I will be" ...if you cannot know who you are how can you expect to understand the Origin

 

[Muffled]

I could, of course, similarly ask YOU why you aren't Baha'i!

Bruce

I'm not Ba'hai because Bahai's aren't Christians and therefore their beliefs are inferior.

 

[Muffled]

And yet apparently a "part" of God is not divine because "Jesus clearly wasn't, as I said the moment you confine God to a mere mortal shell you have placed upon yourself a heavy burden."

There would be no reason for Prophets and Scripture if God would show himself as a human but if he were to do that he would essentially cut off his transcendence.

And I suppose your devaluing of scripture is not surprising given the changing over time of it...

But Jesus was nailed to a cross! He died! He was born! That is omnipotence? Maybe I am omnipotent...

BINGO! The key being that Divinity shifted into mortality in Christianity! To reconcile the idea of God within the realms of man he must lose his divinity because no man can "subjectively understand God". To subjectively understand Jesus debunks any idea of omnipotence. Thanks Kwame.


Clearly monotheism can never be reconciled with shirk.

Thanks for the replies sojourner, I enjoyed it really.

This is an illogical statement. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.
God is not divided into parts. That premise is in error. Jesus clearly is divine, the fact that your mind isn't clear about this doesn't alter the reality. Again your premise is wrong. God is not confined. Again your premise is false. What does a burden have to do with the premises? ... nothing. Once God created the universe He took on the burden of the universe. Does that make Him less God?

Again this is an illogical statement. What you have said is not a truism. The conclusion is not obvious from the premise. The opposite can be shown to be true.

1. God is in Jesus when Jesus is baptised.
2. God is in the form of a dove descending upon Jesus
3. God is in a disembodied voice from the skies

Conclusion God has transcended the physical body of Jesus.

This must be a reference to the Isamic myth that the Bible has been changed. This is just a lame excuse for Muslims to ingnore the Word of God. I could excuse myself from believing anything in the Qu'ran because it supposedly has the same source as the Hadith which is no doubt in error and even has doubtful authorship.

Obviously that is not omnipotence but healing a man blind from birth, quieting down the wind and the waves, creating enough bread from a few loaves to feed thousands are acts of omni-potence. Let me know when you can produce a coin out of a fishes mouth, lol.

Divinity can't shift into mortality. It can inhabit a body that is mortal but God is always immortal. You have contradicted yourself by the statement that no man can understand God. Jesus is not just a man He is God and Man. Therfore Jesus can understand God because He is God. Therfore there is no loss of divinity becasue the humnity of Jesus can't cause that loss. You debunking statement is pure bunk. Subjectivley understanding something does not change its essence.

Clearly shirk is just another self aggrandising concept that can't eliminate the truth. You may be done with Sojourner, but now you will contend with Allah through me and Allah will not let you off the hook so easily. He will hold your feet to the fire.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I am not Muslim because I believe an organic continuity exists between the Christian religion and the Jewish faith, on which the former is founded. Islam can not really claim this. The fact that Islam rejects the scriptures of the religions on which it clearly draws so much inspiration is jarring, in my opinion.

Though I acknowledge that the Christian interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures is not the only possible one, Christianity does begin among a community of Jewish believers who see, in Christ, the illumination of the Hebrew tradition and the drawing together of its many threads into a single and, in my experience, quite cogent and convincing narrative.

Islam, in my opinion, is an attempt to be Christianity without Christ, without the Prophets, without Moses. It tries to universalize Judaism a few hundred years removed from that possibility.

I suppose what I mean is, if Christianity claims to fulfil the hopes of Judaism, at least its original community was composed of Jews. That Muhammad initially had his followers pray in the direction of Jerusalem, and that he only ever travelled there in a mystical experience, is telling. The claim of Islam to be the "real message" of Judaism and Christianity is, in my opinion, historically dubious.

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

Islam is the only religion that is spreading all around the world. It's the only religion whose book is guarded by ALLAH(GOD). The last prophet that bring this tells previous religions are also send by only GOD ALLAH but the truth is when the previous messenger loses its effect and power then the new messenger came with the same message of ALLAH that have been changes by previous nations.

 

[sojourner]

Islam is the only religion that is spreading all around the world.

This is patently false.

 

[sky dancer]

It seems natural that adherents of any particular religion will think theirs is superior to all others. Why else would they choose it?

 

[sojourner]

I'm not Ba'hai because Bahai's aren't Christians and therefore their beliefs are inferior.

By what standard?

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for the replies sojourner, I enjoyed it really.

Glad I could stroke your ego, if that's what you're so desperate for.
The Jews couldn't shut him up, because he is fully Divine.
The Romans couldn't keep him in the grave, because he is fully Divine.
You cannot ridicule him into something he is not, because he is fully Divine.

God is not changed one iota from your self-aggrandized ridicule. I hope you feel better in your egocentric fog.

 

[sky dancer]

By what standard?

Ego?:thud:

 

[sojourner]

Ego?:thud:

Seems to be the biggest culprit in this forum...

 

[Muffled]

Islam is the only religion that is spreading all around the world. It's the only religion whose book is guarded by ALLAH(GOD). The last prophet that bring this tells previous religions are also send by only GOD ALLAH but the truth is when the previous messenger loses its effect and power then the new messenger came with the same message of ALLAH that have been changes by previous nations.

You are in error. Christianity has spread all around the world and continues to do so even in Islamic countries where it is hazardous to the person's health to convert.

This is false. Allah guards the Bible as well.

That isn't the truth. Christianity hasn't lost its power or effect. Mohammed does not have the same message and not nearly as good a message. The message of Jesus has not been changed.

 

[Muffled]

By what standard?

By God's standard of perfection. All other religions fall short of the perfection of God because they rely on man. Christianity relies on God.

 

[Eagle]

Islam is the only religion that is spreading all around the world. It's the only religion whose book is guarded by ALLAH(GOD). The last prophet that bring this tells previous religions are also send by only GOD ALLAH but the truth is when the previous messenger loses its effect and power then the new messenger came with the same message of ALLAH that have been changes by previous nations.

Islam is not the only religion spreading around the world, the reason why Islam is spreading is because Muslims are moving to countries and procreating, their average birth rate is more than any other religion, so it makes sense that Islam is growing out of sheer numbers......

The conversions to Muslim is not so common, but every year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity........it might have something to do that in Islam you have no guarantee whether you can be with God or not and that the God of Christianity is love, love thy neighbor and your enemy......this is not something Islam teaches right?

Copy and paste....

YouTube - 6 Million Muslims convert to Christianity - Al-Jazeerah !

 

[Wombat]

I am not Muslim because I believe an organic continuity exists between the Christian religion and the Jewish faith, on which the former is founded. Islam can not really claim this. The fact that Islam rejects the scriptures of the religions on which it clearly draws so much inspiration is jarring, in my opinion..

Any chance that you could quote the passage in the Quran that "rejects the scriptures of the religions on which it clearly draws so much inspiration" (Judaism/Christianity) ?

Though I acknowledge that the Christian interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures is not the only possible one, Christianity does begin among a community of Jewish believers who see, in Christ, the illumination of the Hebrew tradition and the drawing together of its many threads into a single and, in my experience, quite cogent and convincing narrative..

Recognizing and acknowledging that many at the time who held, learned and fast, to their interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures did not find Christianity to be "a single, quite cogent and convincing narrative"?

i.e....Not recognising the prophet/Messiah has happened before...and could hapen again?

Islam, in my opinion, is an attempt to be Christianity without Christ, without the Prophets, without Moses. It tries to universalize Judaism a few hundred years removed from that possibility...

Is 'Christ' the surname of an individual called Jesus?

Or is 'Christ' a station ordained by God?

I suppose what I mean is, if Christianity claims to fulfil the hopes of Judaism, at least its original community was composed of Jews. That Muhammad initially had his followers pray in the direction of Jerusalem, and that he only ever travelled there in a mystical experience, is telling..

"telling" us what?...That Mohammed paid homage and recognition to what had preceeded and then set his followers to face a new direction and a new revelation?

According to the Hadiths the very first thing Mohammed did was to ask his followers why they had not believed in Christ...They responded- "Our forefathers did not believe therefore we did not believe".

"In this" He told them "You have greatly erred and been greatly led astray".

So I ask again, please, what makes it a "fact" that Islam " "rejects the scriptures" of Judaism/Christianity?

The claim of Islam to be the "real message" of Judaism and Christianity is, in my opinion, historically dubious.

With respect...so far all you have offered that is clear and uncontested to support the assesment of "historically dubious" is the fact that "Muhammad initially had his followers pray in the direction of Jerusalem" and then changed that.

If such is the criteria for rejecting Mohammed then I refer you to the Jewish response to the claims of Jesus and suggest they have a far far stronger case for determining "historically dubious" than the one you have put forward.

 

[Wombat]

I'm not Ba'hai because Bahai's aren't Christians and therefore their beliefs are inferior.

'Christian'........One who believes that when Jesus spoke it was the Word of God that was heard?

That's me.
Baha'i.
Believer in the authority of the instruction of Jesus.

Happy to be "inferior" to all other like believers.

 

[sojourner]

Any chance that you could quote the passage in the Quran that "rejects the scriptures of the religions on which it clearly draws so much inspiration" (Judaism/Christianity) ?

Hah! All you have to do is read the posts of any of the muslims on this site to see how much regard they have for the Bible.