sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Correction: it's all through the (really poor exegesis of) the scriptures.
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Christians, why do you hate Gays?
- Thread starter R34L1TY
- Start date
Then this means the Old Law stands intact... burning bullocks, stoning back-talking children, smiting thy neighbor who works on Saturday, the whole megilla. Gillette Pro-Glide razors are a fast-track to damnation.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
First of all, I know some kids who are better and more responsible drivers than some adults who've been driving for 40 years.
Second, if you believe in some magical "atonement," IMO, you shouldn't throw stones at those whom you "think" are "less understanding."
Japan had been losing the war for years at that point. The United States spent four years pushing them back. They were no longer capable of a significant threat against the United States homeland. And then the United States purposely dropped nuclear bombs on civilian cities, which you support.
And somehow you tied moral relativism into the argument of the morality of homosexuality, as though moral relativism doesn't exist despite making the argument that mass-slaughter of non-combatants is sometimes okay.
Dingbat
Avatar of Brittania
Indeed, not to mention Tokyo had been torched to the ground via firebombing and most of their infrastructure was in ruins. Add that up with the mountains of evidence from people like President Hoover, General Eisenhower, Admiral Leahy, and even psycho General MacArthur saying the bombing was unnecessary and America had already had offers of peace talks from Japan in the beginning of 1945.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
My point is, it's not nearly so "clear" as you accuse it of being. If you think that the bible is the "word of God," why are you treating the interpretation of it in so slipshod a manner?
None of that has anything to do with my opinion that your vote is complicit in the systemic dehumanization of a minority, which is a hate-filled act.
idea
Question Everything
Then this means the Old Law stands intact... burning bullocks, stoning back-talking children, smiting thy neighbor who works on Saturday, the whole megilla. Gillette Pro-Glide razors are a fast-track to damnation.
Let's not exaggerate...
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Dingbat
Avatar of Brittania
Doubt you will get an answer. These two have been dancing around even answering basic questions of Judaic Law Yes/No.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Also, people need to learn how to differentiate between the concept of god itself and how different religions, cultures, time periods, etc. have perceived and portrayed the concept god (which is usually nothing more than a projection of their own egos, emotions, fears, prejudices, cultural norms, etc.) An ancient tome written by primitive goat herders doesn't have a monopoly upon nor power over god.
If there is/was a god, "he" would be a being of pure love and pure logic. Therefore anything devoid of compassion or reason cannot be of god.
If there is/was a god, "he" would be a being of pure love and pure logic. Therefore anything devoid of compassion or reason cannot be of god.
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idea
Question Everything
I do believe in the atonement, it brings me peace and joy, as does trying to follow the commandments of a loving God who only wants the best for all of us. I lived without God's guidance for a big chunk of my life, and find that life is much better when I don't fight against what God would have me do.
I see a lot of anger, and pain, and mistrust on this thread. Many are unable to clearly see the people around them because they have learned to live in a defensive/untrusting/paranoid state. You want a scapegoat to blame, and so you imagine what lies within the hearts and minds of others... If you were able to put aside your paranoia and defensive walls for a bit, you might be surprised to find the people around you are not as unloving as you think... that they have a lot more love for you, then you have for them...
Dingbat
Avatar of Brittania
:biglaugh:
Lady B
noob
It was not ignored, I answered you. I must vote for my own personal beliefs and My beliefs stem from my scriptures. I cannot vote in support of something God condemns, Please tell me how I can? How can you vote against something you absolutely believe is God's way?
I have tried you know, I have really tried to find the loophole, because in many ways I sincerely see your side, I do.I do not wish gays to be discriminated against, My God my own flesh and blood is involved here. If I could find a way to justify support by God, Believe me I would do it so fast. I am not a hateful forceful person. I do not expect the country to be run by any one way system. But you also need to be fair and acknowledge that your own personal beliefs are reflected in your votes, why shouldn't they be? It is your voice.
I came to this debate not to push my side, but to see if there is a possibility I am wrong. You just haven't convinced me, and I am not happy about that in fact I feel defeated. I would love it if you can show me how God would allow this not from a humanistic approach, as I can't agree, But show me Homosexual unions are condoned in scripture and I will concede without grudge and you will have my vote
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So who do you think has singled out the issue of same sex marriage?
These issues don't just randomly magically appear on the ballet. Do you think divorce should be voted on? If so what are you personally doing to get it on the ballet? And if you are doing nothing about other people's divorces why not?
One thing noticeable throughout the centuries is that those who are on the side of hatred, ignorance, discrimination or injustice rarely flat out admit to it or even perceive themselves to be that.
Very few people ever say, "Yes I'm hateful, and my actions are out of hatred and irrationality and my arguments are poor" despite much of the world's problems being due to hatred.
When slavery existed, people in favor of it didn't make the argument: "Yes, I'm in favor of slavery. I'm immoral and selfish and history will forever view me in the wrong." Instead, they used attempts at reason and Biblical claims to support their institution.
When women didn't have the right to vote, most men didn't say, "Yeah, I'm sexist. I like feeling superior. I'll be on the wrong side of history forever" Instead, they made arguments about women being of inferior minds, as though they held the rational position.
When minorities were fighting for equal civil rights, and people opposed them, they didn't say, "Yeah, we're bigots. We're in favor of inequality and discrimination. We enjoy being on the negative pages of history books." Instead, they argued for 'separate but equal' (which was not equal).
Now, when consenting adults want to marry and people who have no business imposing on their lives end up imposing on their lives anyway with legal discrimination of marriage based on sexual orientation, none of them ever say, "yeah, we're homophobes. We hate. We're on the wrong side of history too." Instead they argue that 'God' is on their side and that homosexuality is weird.
And frankly, many of them are partially right. They don't view themselves as hateful or discriminatory or ignorant of the views of professionals on these issues. My family members that are against gay marriage despite knowing nothing about it and having no rational basis against it are loving people in 90% of their lives, but it doesn't change the fact that their voting habits are hurting people and that 20 years from now, history will very likely view their side as being clearly in the wrong.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
don't worry, I've found it for you; the bible is an ancient book written by primitive savages and has absolutely nothing to do with any real god that may or may not exist. Anyone can put words in the mouth of "god", but we need to learn to look past the self-appointed and self-serving middlemen.
God didn't gift you with the ability to reason and the capacity for compassion only for you to forgo their use.
I already suggested to you how you can.
If you feel something to be wrong, don't do it. Don't use laws to stop other people from doing it. I don't use laws to stop you from doing things I find immoral.
Correction: Your interpretation of your religion's interpretation of 'God' is involved here.
You never answered my question about how large of a subset of all religious scriptures you have read, and your answer to how you have come to believed that the papers you use as scripture are in any way valid words from 'God' is pretty much that you have no answer.
Evidence in this thread leads to the contrary conclusion.
In a country that explicitly prohibits religion being the basis of a law, you're using your religion as the basis of your vote to put into law discrimination towards people based on sexual orientation, and it's hurting them.
Then begin actually addressing the arguments rather than sidestepping them.I came to this debate not to push my side, but to see if there is a possibility I am wrong. You just haven't convinced me, and I am not happy about that in fact I feel defeated. I would love it if you can show me how God would allow this not from a humanistic approach, as I can't agree, But show me Homosexual unions are condoned in scripture and I will concede without grudge and you will have my vote
.
You have to jump through a whole series of hurdles to have a logical foundation for imposing legalized discrimination against people based on homosexual orientation and you have yet to successfully argue through any single one of those hurdles, and yet you feel it impossible to stop voting in favor of limiting their rights.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Spare us the martyrdom nonsense. This is about freedom, rights and equality, and naturally anyone with integrity and decency will be angered when people are denied these things.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You see a lot of anger, pain and mistrust because some are unable to see clearly that they are complicit in systemic violence against a minority. I'm not looking for a scapegoat. I'm merely hoping to call it for what it is. I'm not paranoid or defensive. And I'm not hurting for love. But I do hurt for those who are being systemically discriminated against -- and pretty incensed at the hubris of the Christian "right." We did it to the blacks; we did it to the women; now we're doing it to the gays -- all in the name of religious piety. One has to wonder who the next victim will be?
It was not ignored, I answered you. I must vote for my own personal beliefs and My beliefs stem from my scriptures. I cannot vote in support of something God condemns, Please tell me how I can? How can you vote against something I absolutely believe is God's way?
I have tried you know, I have really tried to find the loophole, because in many ways I sincerely see your side, I do.I do not wish gays to be discriminated against, My God my own flesh and blood is involved here. If I could find a way to justify support by God, Believe me I would do it so fast. I am not a hateful forceful person. I do not expect the country to be run by any one way system. But you also need to be fair and acknowledge that your own personal beliefs are reflected in your votes, why shouldn't they be? It is your voice.
I came to this debate not to push my side, but to see if there is a possibility I am wrong. You just haven't convinced me, and I am not happy about that in fact I feel defeated. I would love it if you can show me how God would allow this not from a humanistic approach, as I can't agree, But show me Homosexual unions are condoned in scripture and I will concede without grudge and you will have my vote
.
The bible doesn't say anything except that marriage can save a person from the sin of fornication. If it is wrong in the bible then the bible is wrong because it is by nature and god would be purposely condemning people. As long as no harm is occurring there is hardly an issue which is the point of the commandments of love that the law should be based on. In other words jesus wants people to use common sense regarding the law.