Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[Lady B]

Would you vote to ban divorce for any reason other than adultery?

Like, if a ballot asked if there should be a law that prohibits any divorce that is not due to adultery, would you vote in favor of that law?

Yes i would if adultery was the exception. and with adultery this includes sex in any way shape or form outside of the marriage.

 

[Penumbra]

Yes i would if adultery was the exception. and with adultery this includes sex in any way shape or form outside of the marriage.

So you're willing to place your interpretation of your religion onto the lives of people that do not follow your interpretation of your religion despite the fact that any law in the U.S. has to have a non-religious reason for existing.

You should be thankful that I do not seek to restrict you the way you seek to restrict others, or that I am so quick to dismiss the Constitution and the protections it gives to people.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yes i would if adultery was the exception. and with adultery this includes sex in any way shape or form outside of the marriage.

So a woman shouldn't be allowed to divorce even if her husband brutally beats her on a daily basis?

I think you need to take a step back and seriously reevaluate your morality, and I mean really apply some thought to it.

 

[Lady B]

So you're willing to place your interpretation of your religion onto the lives of people that do not follow your interpretation of your religion despite the fact that any law in the U.S. has to have a non-religious reason for existing.

You should be thankful that I do not seek to restrict you the way you seek to restrict others, or that I am so quick to dismiss the Constitution and the protections it gives to people.

Well I don't exactly rally against the laws allready on the books contrary to my beliefs. I simply would vote according to my own beliefs if I were asked to do so, I see this as rational. I don't see it is rational for me to go fight against the divorce laws that are in tact and force my religious views on all of mankind no.But I do not agree it is good for anyone to marry and divorce simply from boredom or a desire to be free from the confines of marriage.

 

[Lady B]

So a woman shouldn't be allowed to divorce even if her husband brutally beats her on a daily basis?

I think you need to take a step back and seriously reevaluate your morality, and I mean really apply some thought to it.

I think in this instance she should separate from him until which time he repents and if that never happens she should separate indefinitely. Is she free to divorce and remarry, well Biblically It is not an allowance, But if she separates and he divorces her, well she is free once he moves into an adulteress relationship or remarries. Really this is complicated even for me and I am not really sure God would not allow habitual abuse to be grounds for divorce. It is just not written.By all means I am not asking any woman to stay in an unsafe relationship and even one brutal beating is enough to encourage her to leave and seek safety.

 

[Me Myself]

I think in this instance she should separate from him until which time he repents and if that never happens she should separate indefinitely. Is she free to divorce and remarry, well Biblically no, But if she separates and he divorces her, well she is free once he moves into an adulteress relationship or remarries. Really this is complicated even for me and I am not really sure God would not allow habitual abuse to be grounds for abuse. It is just not written.

So let me get this straight:

1- A husband that hits or even say is actively trying to kill his wife is still the wife´s husband, and she cannot divorce him (although she can be as separate as she can)

2-Model husband has been an awesome husband all the marriage, but one day he gives in to temptation and has sex with another woman and this is acceptable divorce scenario?

I mean don´t get me wrong, I think adultery is one of the worst things you can do in a relationship, but saying that it is the only thing that could warrant a divorce is ridiculous. There is always a worst case scenario. Why on EARTH adultery? Why not beating till unconscious? or cutting the arm off his wife? Or shooting her? Or killing their kids? No? Nada? Only if adulterous?

Come on.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think in this instance she should separate from him until which time he repents and if that never happens she should separate indefinitely. Is she free to divorce and remarry, well Biblically It is not an allowance, But if she separates and he divorces her, well she is free once he moves into an adulteress relationship or remarries. Really this is complicated even for me and I am not really sure God would not allow habitual abuse to be grounds for divorce. It is just not written.By all means I am not asking any woman to stay in an unsafe relationship and even one brutal beating is enough to encourage her to leave and seek safety.

It's funny that you think so little of god that he would be a slave to the irrational and unjust cultural norms of ancient, primitive goat herders (which is all that the bible actually is, and nothing more). Again, god gave you a brain. Don't squander his gift.

 

[Penumbra]

Well I don't exactly rally against the laws allready on the books contrary to my beliefs.

Which ones?

I simply would vote according to my own beliefs if I were asked to do so, I see this as rational.

Voting for laws based 100% religious reasons in a country that explicitly doesn't allow laws based on religious reasons is rational to you?

Discriminating against people that don't interfere with you in any way is rational to you?

I don't see it is rational for me to go fight against the divorce laws that are in tact and force my religious views on all of mankind no.

But you'd vote for them if they came up on the ballot. Same thing for making homosexual marriage unlawful.

So you're not actively in favor of discrimination, you're just passively in favor of discrimination?

But I do not agree it is good for anyone to marry and divorce simply from boredom or a desire to be free from the confines of marriage.

I don't think it's good for people to adhere to mainstream Christianity but you don't see me legislating against their freedom of religion.

 

[Me Myself]

I must say this is getting quite out of subject.

 

[Lady B]

So let me get this straight:

1- A husband that hits or even say is actively trying to kill his wife is still the wife´s husband, and she cannot divorce him (although she can be as separate as she can)

2-Model husband has been an awesome husband all the marriage, but one day he gives in to temptation and has sex with another woman and this is acceptable divorce scenario?

I mean don´t get me wrong, I think adultery is one of the worst things you can do in a relationship, but saying that it is the only thing that could warrant a divorce is ridiculous. There is always a worst case scenario. Why on EARTH adultery? Why not beating till unconscious? or cutting the arm off his wife? Or shooting her? Or killing their kids? No? Nada? Only if adulterous?

Come on.

Well I did not make the rules, God did. I do agree that any violence at all is good cause. I am not sure why Christ made this the only allowance really. But I certainly would never want any person, man or woman to stay in a violent relationship, they must get out and seek help, I would.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Seems that voting based on personal beliefs concerning others behavior is just another way of imposing those beliefs on others.
If you don't believe in divorce for reasons other than adultery, don't get divorced for any reason other than adultery. Those are your personal beliefs, live by them personally.

Really this is complicated even for me and I am not really sure God would not allow habitual abuse to be grounds for divorce. It is just not written.

If it is not written, then you are rationalizing.


Perhaps it is better for a Christian to live by example, rather than legislating the lives of others.

 

[Lady B]

Ok all, This has been a good debate and I will give some of these things some thought,I must bow out for the night though, It is almost 1 am and I am exhausted. Goodnight

 

[Drolefille]

As noted, this has gotten off track.

I don't expect anyone else to live by my rules, and thus I wouldn't use my power - whether at a voting booth or physically or otherwise - to try and force them to.

This thread has gotten hung up on having the "right" to vote one's convictions. But the problem is that in this case ,voting these convictions is actually voting to force others to live by a set of morals that isn't their own.

But frankly this is why I'm glad we have checks and balances and a judicial system that works, at least slightly, faster than the ballot box. As long as rights are left up to the majority, they can also be taken away by the majority. For all the dodging that Lady B did, I note she did not answer the question about what would be done if rights were taken away from HER by majority vote. Claiming that apparently eye color is protected by the constitution, which it is clearly not.

The inability to empathize and place oneself in the position of the minority is so incredibly saddening. It suggests that people see the "other" as so completely different from themselves that they cannot relate.

Same-sex marriage isn't in the Bible. We can debate the verses about homosexuality all day long, but the legality of same-sex marriage will not change the incidence of same-sex sexual encounters. The legality of same-sex marriage does not change whether a particular church condones or opposes same-sex marriage. All the legality of same-sex marriage does is confer the legal rights of marriage on the couple.

As a polyamorous person, I wonder, would Lady B condone a polygamous marriage as these are clearly condoned in the Bible. Can I marry my married boyfriend?

 

[deif6]

I love homosexual people; I love the sinner, but hate the sin.

 

[idav]

Well I did not make the rules, God did. I do agree that any violence at all is good cause. I am not sure why Christ made this the only allowance really. But I certainly would never want any person, man or woman to stay in a violent relationship, they must get out and seek help, I would.

He wasn't saying it as a defactoid "this is the only exception". His whole point was not to take the law so literally that you relinquish love and reason. He was also making a point that we are weak and really divorce isn't permissive. This is beside the whole point of whether Jesus thought marriage is permissible by same sex.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What biblical material supports homosexuals and same sex marriage? I really want to see. You clearly have seen the opposing biblical view, and apart from the view of Jesus as an understanding peaceful pacifist I see no way you can draw approval from scripture.

I don't see Jesus as "an understanding peaceful pacifist". As I said, I see Jesus as someone who had no tolerance for people who used religion as an excuse to hurt people or perpetuate injustice, both things that go along with prohibiting same-sex marriage.

But here you go.

Passages that suggest that sin is obsolete, which would negate any claim that homosexuality is a sin

Believers have "died with Christ" and have therefore been released from the law of the living:
Colossians 2:20-23:

20 If you have died with Christ [x]to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish [y]with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the [z]appearance of wisdom in [aa]self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Same:
Romans 7:6:

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Same:
Romans 14:14:

14 I know and am convinced [f]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself;

Same:
1 Corinthians 10:23:

All things are lawful

Passages that actually provide support for same-sex marriage

It is more important to pursue justice and mercy than the religious rules:
Matthew 23:23-24

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and [v]cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Love is from God:
1 John 4:7

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is [a]born of God and knows God.

God will reward people who have been persecuted and harmed in the name of God and faith (which, IMO, would include same-sex couples denied normal rights for religious reasons):
Matthew 5:10-12

10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Verses that support the idea that same-sex marriage, even if sinful, is not something that Christians should try to outlaw

Jesus gives a formula to deal with sinners (which includes only private admonishment followed by public admonishment and finally cutting off contact, but not actually preventing him from continuing in his sin):
Matthew 18:15-17

15 “If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector.

Christians shouldn't judge others:
Matthew 7:1-5:

“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Christians shouldn't judge non-Christians:
1 Corinthians 5:12:

12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [h]judges.

Christians shouldn't use the secular law for matters of faith:
1 Corinthians 6:1-6

1 Does any one of you, when he has a [a]case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the [c]saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to [d]constitute the smallest law courts? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? 4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, [e]do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, 6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

Christians shouldn't judge others:
Romans 14:4

4 Who are you to judge the [a]servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

A prophecy that some future instance of forbidding of marriage will be motivated by evil:
1 Timothy 4:1-5

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

Is that enough for you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh... something else I came across: apparently, there's a minority view that says that Adam was a hermaphrodite and that this is alluded to in the language of Genesis.

 

[NIX]

May as well lobby against shellfish and mixed fabric blends.

 

[NIX]

Would you vote to ban divorce for any reason other than adultery?

Like, if a ballot asked if there should be a law that prohibits any divorce that is not due to adultery, would you vote in favor of that law?

Like a ban on divorce except in cases of adultery.

 

[fantome profane]

No I would not vote to bann divorce if it were on the ballot ( sorry my mind wants to spell it as it sounds)

You spell with a Canadian accent.