Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[Ingledsva]

According to the god of the old testament the act of homosexuality is an abomination and should be punished with death. It doesn't mention that being homosexual is a sin since back then people didn't even realize it was something people were born with, they thought some individuals just chose to go around and have sex with other men just for fun.


According to Jesus in the new testament...he made no comments on it, no mention except some bible verses where he speaks of two men sleeping in a bed, one would be taken and the other left behind, perhaps referring to the rapture, basically saying that even gays who live together could be saved, but one could stay behind if he or she was not faithful or whatever.



Christianity should be based more on the...cough 'reform' of the new testament and should ignore most of the stuff written down in the old one, since the old one pretty much orders around everyone to slaughter each other.



I personally believe that the Christians who choose to go around with their anti-gay agenda are just reflecting their own personal hate towards them, their homophobia if you will, and use the bible as an excuse to justify their hate.

We needto stop using the word homosexuality when discussing these verses.

We are talking Ritual Temple sex. Not homosexuals. The majority of these Temple Prostitutes would have been heterosexual. They were trained to perform these acts.

 

[Desert Snake]

According to chabad.org

There shall not be a prostitute of the daughters of Israel, and there shall not be a male prostitute of the sons of Israel.

O.k., but the question at hand really was whether they were homosexual or not. "Prostitute" doesn't specify.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Beyond just arguing about what it means to be a sodomite, here's a question: Can anyone think of one instance where a same sex relationship was actually spoken of as being an acceptable way to live in either the OT or NT?


Genesis 2:
But for Adamh no suitable helper was found. 21So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribsi and closed up the place with flesh. 22Then the Lord God made a woman from the ribj he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,k’
for she was taken out of man.” For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


Mark 10: 5&#8220;It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,&#8221;</SPAN> Jesus replied. 6&#8220;But at the beginning of creation God &#8216;made them male and female.&#8217;a</SPAN> 7&#8216;For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,b</SPAN> 8and the two will become one flesh.&#8217;c So they are no longer two, but one.</SPAN> 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.&#8221;</SPAN>


Yes, the bolded words are indeed the words of Jesus. FWIW, I have no doubt that people claiming to be experts in health and human behavior have been using the "it's natural" argument for millenia. Jesus doesn't appear to find such arguments compelling.

 

[Ingledsva]

According to chabad.org

There shall not be a prostitute of the daughters of Israel, and there shall not be a male prostitute of the sons of Israel.

Yes, specifically a Sacred Prostitute. Qadesh and Qadeshah.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Beyond just arguing about what it means to be a sodomite, here's a question: Can anyone think of one instance where a same sex relationship was actually spoken of as being an acceptable way to live in either the OT or NT?

For that matter, can anyone think of one instance where interracial marriage was actually spoken of as being an acceptable way to live in either the OT or NT?

 

[tumbleweed41]

O.k., but the question at hand really was whether they were homosexual or not. "Prostitute" doesn't specify.

Do you really think all the female prostitutes were lesbians?
If not, why assume all male prostitute were gay?

And really, does it matter? The prohibition specifies that no Israelite shall be a Temple Prostitute?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

For that matter, can anyone think of one instance where interracial marriage was actually spoken of as being an acceptable way to live in either the OT or NT?

The Israelites were commanded to marry only Israelites just like Christians are commanded to only marry Christians. And why? because non believing spouses would cause their hearts to stray from their God. You'll notice that even in the OT, foreigners were not necessarily excluded from being members of Israel. The nation of Israel was not some ancient version of the aryan nation intent on maintaining racial purity.


Exodus 12:43-49
These are the regulations for the Passover:
No foreigner is to eat of it....
It must be eaten inside one house; take none of the meat outside the house....
An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the Lord's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land.... The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hmmm....

But, as you pointed out about homosexual relationships, it doesn't specifically condone interracial marriage, does it?


And, by your previous logic, if something is not specifically condoned, it must be forbidden.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Hmmm....

But, as you pointed out about homosexual relationships, it doesn't specifically condone interracial marriage, does it?


And, by your previous logic, if something is not specifically condoned, it must be forbidden.

How is that my previous logic? My point was that every piece of evidence we have in Scripture which applies to the topic of proper uses of sex, whether talking about what is condemned and conversly condoned, either outright says or implies that it's only in marriage between a man and a woman.

 

[tumbleweed41]

How is that my previous logic?

Seems to be what you said here.

Beyond just arguing about what it means to be a sodomite, here's a question: Can anyone think of one instance where a same sex relationship was actually spoken of as being an acceptable way to live in either the OT or NT?

My point was that every piece of evidence we have in Scripture which applies to the topic of proper uses of sex either outright says or implies that it's only in marriage between a man and a woman.

And every piece of evidence we have in Scripture which applies to the the topic uses of sex says or implies that it's only in marriage between persons of the same race.

Deuteronomy 7:2-3: "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Leviticus 19:19: "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind ..."
Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."
Deuteronomy 22:9: "Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled."

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Seems to be what you said here.





And every piece of evidence we have in Scripture which applies to the the topic uses of sex says or implies that it's only in marriage between persons of the same race.

Deuteronomy 7:2-3: "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Leviticus 19:19: "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind ..."
Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."
Deuteronomy 22:9: "Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled."

I just posted Exodus which flat out contradicts your assertion that God is interested in creating a nation of racial purity


Deuteronomy 7

1 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven anations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly adestroy them; thou shalt bmake no ccovenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:3 Neither shalt thou make amarriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will aturn away thy son from following me, that they may bserve other gods: so will the canger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I just posted Exodus which flat out contradicts your assertion that God is interested in creating a nation of racial purity

I suppose that would depend on how one interprets the meaning.

Racist have used the Bible for years as justification. Most Christians I know don't think there is any Biblical justification for racism. And many do not think there is any Biblical justification for denying LGBT's the right to marry.



Myself, I think the only ones who care about race, or homosexual relationships/marriages, are humans, not God.

 

[Ingledsva]

So instead of "male prostitute" it was translated as "sodomite". What's the difference? Are you saying that the male prostitutes weren't homosexuals?

Sodomite does not mean a common prostitute. It specifically means a Qadesh = Sacred Prostitute. And NOT a homosexual.

One way of putting this would be - All Qadesh (Sacred Prostitutes) are whores - but not all whores are Qadesh. These verses use the term QADESH = Sacred Prostitute.

A male prostitute can be homosexual or heterosexual, just as today.

But we are talking about Sacred prostitutes - they were dedicated or sold to the Temple as children and were trained as Sacred Prostitutes to offer these services. This means there would be a mix of Heterosexual and homosexual children - with the majority being heterosexual.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm pretty sure all that justification of these acts through being an "orientation", or any other method of justification, is addressed in chapter 3 of 1 Corinthians

"18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise.19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”a;20and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”b"


As far as what Jesus did or didn't condemn. He does make it clear that sexual immorality is indeed something that exists in God's eyes. He was a student of the Old Testament and quoted it often. He would know exactly what the definition of sexual sin is from the OT. There's no reason to believe that he calls for some of that law to be superceded. If he had offenders of this portion of the law running around all over the ancient world making an assault on Jewish culture so that people couldn't go anywhere without hearing the "virtues" of homosexual acts being lauded perhaps we might have a record of him focusing on this particular portion of the law.

We are not justifying anything! We are forcing you to look at what your bible - which is supposed to be HOLY to you - ACTUALLY SAYS.

Homosexuality is not focused on in the Bible because it wasn't an issue - Sacred sex WAS focused on because they had a problem with it - the idols were being beought into the Temples, and the Sacred Prostitutes were offering sex there. Such sex is IDOLATRY.

All reference to "homosexuality" was added later as cultural bias - NOT BIBLICAL LAW!

 

[starlite]

We are not justifying anything! We are forcing you to look at what your bible - which is supposed to be HOLY to you - ACTUALLY SAYS.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Our Creator established rules governing marriage long before governments began regulating the institution of marriage. The first book of the Bible tells us: “A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24) The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, says “ one who is a female human being.” Jesus confirmed that those yoked together in marriage should be “male and female.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 19:4 (NWT)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As our Creator wouldn't God be the final arbiter ? He commanded his people: “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22. Where in the Bible does it say he changed how he felt?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As one who believes in the Bible, it seems clear to me: God does not approve of or condone homosexual practices. In my opinion “marriage” cannot give homosexuality a cloak of respectability. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 13:4.(NWT)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Personally, it is the behavior and not the person that I have difficulty with....with God's help an individual can overcome these desires.[/FONT]

 

[tumbleweed41]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Our Creator established rules governing marriage long before governments began regulating the institution of marriage. The first book of the Bible tells us: “A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24) The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, says “ one who is a female human being.” Jesus confirmed that those yoked together in marriage should be “male and female.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 19:4 (NWT)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As our Creator wouldn't God be the final arbiter ? He commanded his people: “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22. Where in the Bible does it say he changed how he felt?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As one who believes in the Bible, it seems clear to me: God does not approve of or condone homosexual practices. In my opinion “marriage” cannot give homosexuality a cloak of respectability. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 13:4.(NWT)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Personally, it is the behavior and not the person that I have difficulty with....with God's help an individual can overcome these desires.[/FONT]

Leviticus calls it "an abomination".
Other "abominations" in Leviticus are; eagles, owls, storks, shellfish, and "every creeeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Except locusts).
Yet in 1st Timothy, we are told that "everything created by God is good".

Do you, as a Christian, look to Leviticus as a guide on how to live? Do you follow each and every commandment and prohibition?
And what of Paul? Do you follow all of his advice? Do you keep quiet in the Church? Do you keep your head covered in church, or when praying? If not, what you are doing is an "abomination".
After all, a man is the "Glory of God", but the woman is the "Glory of man".

Or perhaps it is better to look at these legalities as cultural and situational, and concentrate on what may be the most important verse ever attributed to Paul;

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[JoStories]

Where did Jesus say anything about hating gays?

The real reason people hate others is because it makes them feel better about themselves. If you can put down an entire group of people in your mind then it raises your own level of self esteem.

No actually. Although he did say a bit about bei with one's Spouse and fornication. Nothing is specific to homosexuality. Paul, OTOH, says quite a lot but there are many ministers and theologians, including me, who do not believe Paul knew The Christ.

 

[JoStories]

No I commend you for your fairness, I am only trying to show how it is seen as hate minded Christians because we refuse to allow it in the churches and that is very unfair. There is a story recently how a chapel refused to perform a same sex marriage and they were sued and forced to shut down. what are your thoughts on that?

I strongly disagree that anyone, and I am bisexual, should force a church whose beliefs are against homosexuality, to perform the ceremony. A civil union is just as legal, IMO. However, some states do not allow SSM at all and that, too, is unfair.

 

[JoStories]

I wouldn't see it as ok if it had in fact happened that way, but from what you're telling me, that's not actually what happened.

Even if I take the couple's claim at face value, it's no different from refusing a black family a room on basis of their skin color. If they choose to shut down rather than obey anti-discrimination laws, that's their own doing.

Agreed. I know that story. Those people were wrong and bigoted. Shame on them.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I strongly disagree that anyone, and I am bisexual, should force a church whose beliefs are against homosexuality, to perform the ceremony.

I agree, and I have my doubts about any claims that anyone has been forced to do so.

No minister can be forced to perform a marriage ceremony, heterosexual or otherwise.
If a non-Catholic couple want to be married in a Catholic church, the minister has no legal obligation to do so.
I myself have performed two legal marriages in Colorado. When same-sex marriage becomes legal here, I will happily perform them, but no one can force me to do so, nor can any one force me to perform any marriage ceremony.