Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[Alceste]

How can that be true when more than 30 states opposed it many times, some of these states have a very liberal majority also. It is not only christians and conservatives opposing gay marriage, I really hope you all know that.

It's based on survey data. Many polls in 2011 had similar results. My guess is that the surveys were not limited to "likely voters", so if the anti-gay minority is sufficiently motivated they can still impact state-level elections despite public opinion.

Do you have any examples of non-religious / non-conservative people or organizations speaking out against gay marriage? I've never heard that claim before.

 

[Lady B]

Except that Jesus actually did say that what you eat doesn't make you unclean.

no Jesus did not actually say that, He said " It is not what goes in the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of his heart" and this was not about dietary laws, It was about not washing beofre eating.


There are indeed verses That allow Christians to eat any food blessed in prayer. You see this as a contradiction or abolishment, we see it as part of Christs atonement. However if you are not a Christian and are not under the blood of Christ, You will be judged by the law and you will pay the penalty for breaking it.

 

[Storm]

no Jesus did not actually say that, He said " It is not what goes in the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of his heart" and this was not about dietary laws, It was about not washing beofre eating.

Wait, what? I don't see how you get "wash your hands" out of that. "What comes out of your heart" has nothing to do with dirt under your nails, it's clearly a reference to words and actions.

There are indeed verses That allow Christians to eat any food blessed in prayer. You see this as a contradiction or abolishment, we see it as part of Christs atonement. However if you are not a Christian and are not under the blood of Christ, You will be judged by the law and you will pay the penalty for breaking it.

I'm sorry, are you really saying that the fact I'm not a Christian means I'm going to hell for not keeping Jewish dietary law? The Jews don't even think I should.

 

[Lady B]

It's based on survey data. Many polls in 2011 had similar results. My guess is that the surveys were not limited to "likely voters", so if the anti-gay minority is sufficiently motivated they can still impact state-level elections despite public opinion.

Do you have any examples of non-religious / non-conservative people or organizations speaking out against gay marriage? I've never heard that claim before.

why not look closely at the states that oppose gay marriage, some of these states are liberal, are you suggesting these states have a 60% christian majority? The media , the universities, are all in an uproar and consistantly rage against homophobia, yet when they go to the polls and vote their true minds, many are obviously folding and voting against this. If as you say the majority is for gay marriage, then how do you justify the majority of states opposing it in the polls?

 

[Lady B]

Wait, what? I don't see how you get "wash your hands" out of that. "What comes out of your heart" has nothing to do with dirt under your nails, it's clearly a reference to words and actions.



I'm sorry, are you really saying that the fact I'm not a Christian means I'm going to hell for not keeping Jewish dietary law? The Jews don't even think I should.

matthew 15:11
What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"

matthew 15:18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'

The jews don't think you should why? Because the Jews feel the Laws were for them?

 

[Storm]

why not look closely at the states that oppose gay marriage, some of these states are liberal, are you suggesting these states have a 60% christian majority? The media , the universities, are all in an uproar and consistantly rage against homophobia, yet when they go to the polls and vote their true minds, many are obviously folding and voting against this. If as you say the majority is for gay marriage, then how do you justify the majority of states opposing it in the polls?

I can address this, since it actually happened in my beloved Oregon.

There, at least, it's almost like 2 different states. There's Multnomah County, which is as blue as it gets, and everybody else. Thing is, Multnomah County represents about half of registered voters. When Oregon passed its same sex marriage ban, there was a much higher than usual turnout of conservative voters in other counties, according to exit polls. Multnomah County was staunchly against it, but we still lost by like a point and a half.

 

[Storm]

matthew 15:11
What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"

matthew 15:18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'

Repetition doesn't alter the quote. It has nothing to do with washing before you eat.

The jews don't think you should why? Because the Jews feel the Laws were for them?

Yeah, pretty much. And given that those laws are actually the covenant given to the Jews, they have a point.

Now, they think I should keep the 7 Noachide Laws, and I disagree, but there's nothing in there about eating kosher.

 

[Lady B]

I can address this, since it actually happened in my beloved Oregon.

There, at least, it's almost like 2 different states. There's Multnomah County, which is as blue as it gets, and everybody else. Thing is, Multnomah County represents about half of registered voters. When Oregon passed its same sex marriage ban, there was a much higher than usual turnout of conservative voters in other counties, according to exit polls. Multnomah County was staunchly against it, but we still lost by like a point and a half.

Ok, I did bulk conservatives in with Christians in a prior post, but let's separate them now and see that You certainly don't need to be a Christian to be a conservative right? I think there is wisdom in voting against it, just because nature itself bears witness against it since reproduction requires sperm and eggs right? Even with all we know in surrogacy, adoption, test tubes, wouldn't an average Joe say ' hey we need to keep up production here" and vote no?

 

[Storm]

Ok, I did bulk conservatives in with Christians in a prior post, but let's separate them now and see that You certainly don't need to be a Christian to be a conservative right?

Of course not. Nor does one need to be a conservative to be a Christian. That doesn't change the reality that the vast majority of Americans consider themselves to be Christian, nor the reality that opposition to same sex marriage is a conservative platform.

I think there is wisdom in voting against it, just because nature itself bears witness against it since reproduction requires sperm and eggs right? Even with all we know in surrogacy, adoption, test tubes, wouldn't an average Joe say ' hey we need to keep up production here" and vote no?

No. Banning same sex marriage doesn't magically make homosexuals go breed, it's irrelevant.

 

[Lady B]

Repetition doesn't alter the quote. It has nothing to do with washing before you eat.

I beg to differ, It is indeed in the context of the washing of hands.
Matthew 15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

 

[Lady B]

Of course not. Nor does one need to be a conservative to be a Christian. That doesn't change the reality that the vast majority of Americans consider themselves to be Christian, nor the reality that opposition to same sex marriage is a conservative platform.


No. Banning same sex marriage doesn't magically make homosexuals go breed, it's irrelevant.

I don't agree in its irrelevancy, I have talked to many non-Christians who oppose on those precepts alone. maybe we can make a poll here?

 

[Storm]

I beg to differ, It is indeed in the context of the washing of hands.
Matthew 15
King James Version (KJV)

15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

The fact that you found an earlier line that mentioned hands doesn't change the fact that "what comes out of his heart" has nothing to do with it.

 

[Storm]

I don't agree in its irrelevancy, I have talked to many non-Christians who oppose on those precepts alone. maybe we can make a poll here?

It's been done, the majority here thinks it's irrelevant to same sex marriage. How many is "many?"

 

[Jainarayan]

What's the fun of being Christian if you have to be Christlike?

Yeah, what did Gandhi say? Something like "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians; they are so unlike your Christ". It may be apocryphal but it 's too often true.

 

[Lady B]

The fact that you found an earlier line that mentioned hands doesn't change the fact that "what comes out of his heart" has nothing to do with it.

The question was asked and then jesus gave a long answer, still pertaining to the question. I did not go find a random verse, it is the header verse, please read it again in context.
and then I will ask you to give support to your claim that Jesus himself abolished the dietary law with chapter and verse.

 

[Storm]

The question was asked and then jesus gave a long answer, still pertaining to the question. I did not go find a random verse, it is the header verse, please read it again in context.
and then I will ask you to give support to your claim that Jesus himself abolished the dietary law with chapter and verse.

No, it wasn't random, just irrelevant. "what comes out of a man's heart" has noting to do with washing his hands. Deny all you want, it won't change anything.

As for chapter and verse, you just provided it yourself. I see no need to be redundant.

 

[Lady B]

It's been done, the majority here thinks it's irrelevant to same sex marriage. How many is "many?"

To be honest that doesn't surprise me, and I would go further to say my views are a small minority in this forum.

 

[Storm]

To be honest that doesn't surprise me, and I would go further to say my views are a small minority in this forum.

Vewry true. Now, how many is many? 2, perhaps?

 

[Lady B]

No, it wasn't random, just irrelevant. "what comes out of a man's heart" has noting to do with washing his hands. Deny all you want, it won't change anything.

As for chapter and verse, you just provided it yourself. I see no need to be redundant.

Then in all due respect you are wrong. The verse in context is absolutely pertaining to the opening question from the scribes and pharisees
and he adressed it directly and ended the whole speech in answer to the opening q.
here it is entirly:
Matthew 15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[Storm]

I direct you to your own quote. The one you've made 3 or 4 times with the big 18 in front of it. You might want to read 19, as well.