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Christless Christianity
- Thread starter Christless Christianity
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Neither am I. pretty clear Jesus wasn't the king of the Jews. Yep, as much violence as necessary. Jesus was no fool. Like you and me, he knew the Golden Rule outranks pacifism.
J Bryson
Well-Known Member
Here's what ranked top for him when he was asked what the two most important commandments were:
Matthew 22:37-40: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I can't fault either one.
J Bryson
Well-Known Member
Certainly. As he was asked about the commandments, it makes sense that he would quote the Torah. He was obviously of one mind with Hillel when it came to his perspective on what took priority.
Hillel's comment is even better when you consider that according to legend, he came up with it after being challenged to recite the Torah while standing on one leg.
Hillel's comment is even better when you consider that according to legend, he came up with it after being challenged to recite the Torah while standing on one leg.
I think it's the student that stands on one leg.
Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a
His disciples questioned him and said, "How should we fast and how should we pray, and how should we do charitable deeds and what food law should we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not lie and that which you hate, do not do because everything is evident before the truth. For there is nothing hidden that will not be made clear." P.Oxy 654/Thomas 6
Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a
His disciples questioned him and said, "How should we fast and how should we pray, and how should we do charitable deeds and what food law should we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not lie and that which you hate, do not do because everything is evident before the truth. For there is nothing hidden that will not be made clear." P.Oxy 654/Thomas 6
Both.
Yup. And whether or not you end up killing him or her, report it exactly to the police.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
The way I see it, Christianity is a religion of the creed, instead of the deed.
The whole "in this world and not of it" and "original sin" business makes it clear that according to Christianity, this world is miserable and hopeless, and all that matters is getting to heaven to be with Jesus.
Christianity doesn't seem concerned at all with what you actually do, just so long as you accept Jesus as your savior.
At least, that's the impression I get from many of the Christians I talk to on forums like these.
But not the historical Jesus, and a lot of it slipped into the Christian Bible. The Epistle of James for instance. It's the brother of Jesus and leader after he died discussing two things. First that it's deeds that matter, not creed like Paul said...
[SIZE=-1]2:14[/SIZE]What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? [SIZE=-1]2:15[/SIZE]And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, [SIZE=-1]2:16[/SIZE]and one of you tells them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled;" and yet you didn't give them the things the body needs, what good is it? [SIZE=-1]2:17[/SIZE]Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. [SIZE=-1]2:18[/SIZE]Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. [SIZE=-1]2:20[/SIZE]But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? [SIZE=-1]2:21[/SIZE]Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? [SIZE=-1]2:22[/SIZE]You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; [SIZE=-1]2:23[/SIZE]and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of God. [SIZE=-1]2:24[/SIZE]You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. [SIZE=-1]2:25[/SIZE]In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? [SIZE=-1]2:26[/SIZE]For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
[SIZE=-1]5:1[/SIZE]Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming on you. [SIZE=-1]5:2[/SIZE]Your riches are corrupted and your garments are moth-eaten. [SIZE=-1]5:3[/SIZE]Your gold and your silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be for a testimony against you, and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up your treasure in the last days. [SIZE=-1]5:4[/SIZE]Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you have kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of those who reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Hosts. [SIZE=-1]5:5[/SIZE]You have lived delicately on the earth, and taken your pleasure. You have nourished your hearts as in a day of slaughter.
And as a Jew, discussed the Written Law. He used the self-reference paradox that demonstrates that all axiomatic systems are incomplete. "This statement is false." When being asked about judging others on the Law, he points out the Law says not to judge others, and makes no exceptions, so take it easy on judging by the Law, the Law says you're not supposed to.
[SIZE=-1]2:2[/SIZE]For if a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, comes into your assembly, and a poor man in filthy clothing also comes in; [SIZE=-1]2:3[/SIZE]and you pay special attention to him who wears the fine clothing, and say, "Sit here in a good place;" and you tell the poor man, "Stand there," or "Sit by my footstool;" [SIZE=-1]2:4[/SIZE]haven't you shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? [SIZE=-1]2:5[/SIZE]Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the Kingdom which he promised to those who love him? [SIZE=-1]2:6[/SIZE]But you have dishonored the poor man. Don't the rich oppress you, and personally drag you before the courts? [SIZE=-1]2:7[/SIZE]Don't they blaspheme the honorable name by which you are called? [SIZE=-1]2:8[/SIZE]However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. [SIZE=-1]2:9[/SIZE]But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. [SIZE=-1]2:10[/SIZE]For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he has become guilty of all. [SIZE=-1]2:11[/SIZE]For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [SIZE=-1]2:12[/SIZE]So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom. [SIZE=-1]2:13[/SIZE]For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
[SIZE=-1]4:11[/SIZE]Don't speak against one another, brothers. He who speaks against a brother and judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge. [SIZE=-1]4:12[/SIZE]Only one is the lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge another?
Christless Christianity
Member
I haven't read much of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. What did he have to say in regards to Christless Christianity?
Christless Christianity
Member
Interesting comment and an honest assessment of modern day Christianity. Maybe if the creeds when deep down from the mind to the heart, the deeds would have to follow (James 2?). I think modern day Christianity is quite dumbed down, and the typical Christian is quite ignorant of the historical creeds which would transform to the good deeds.
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Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't obey the words of Jesus very well with teachings such as not judging, feeding the hungry, etc. They seem to believe that if they go to Church on Sunday for an hour, then they're good. But, as many people here have said, going to Church doesn't make someone a Christian any more than someone going into a garage is a car.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure he was talking about what you're talking about, but he had a lot to say about how a Christian community should live together under real grace (as opposed to what he saw as the cheap grace of the modern liberal Christianity Germany had been living with for some time).
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Like any other bumper sticker slogan, this oversimplifies to the point where the only rational response is :slap:
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
It's funny that this post comes immediately after a post with dunemeister talking about bumper sticker slogans.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
You could just as easily assert judaism is about wearing black clothes, growing a beard, having seperate ovens and eating gefilter fish....
Simplistic conclusions are simplistic conclusions... no matter what the subject
Christless Christianity
Member
WWJD or "What would Jesus do" is actually anti-Christian. I believe true Christianity is about what Jesus actually did for us; therefore, we now are able to live a life of gratitude being reconciled to God, living for the glory of God in progressive growth. Mainstream Christianity tends to be humanistic in many ways. Mainstream Christianity still leaves mankind at the center of the universe. In many ways, contemporary Christianity makes man his own idol instead of worshipping God in His proper place.