Christmas is not secular

[URAVIP2ME]

Wrong. I don't care whether people consider Christmas religious or not, much less if it would be hypocritical.

How could Christmas Not be connected with being religious because isn't the name of Christ involved with Christ's mass ?

Sure, celebrating on an old pagan festival [Saturnalia] in itself might not be considered hypocritical, although the pagans enjoyed sun worship.
But when Biblical names and out-of-context spots of Scripture are attached to it,
then doesn't Christmas take on a hypocritical religious aspect ?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So, basically Christmas isn't secular. It's commercialized, yes, however the holiday is about Jesus, regardless of the "Yule" date etc.
This being the case, why do non-Christians celebrate Christmas? Is it hypocrisy?

Christ's Mass is Christian, Christmas is a hodge-podge of religious and cultural traditions rolled into one massive commercialised free for all.

 

[Desert Snake]

How could Christmas Not be connected with being religious because isn't the name of Christ involved with Christ's mass ?

I never argued otherwise.

Sure, celebrating on an old pagan festival [Saturnalia] in itself might not be considered hypocritical, although the pagans enjoyed sun worship.
But when Biblical names and out-of-context spots of Scripture are attached to it,
then doesn't Christmas take on a hypocritical religious aspect ?

Only if people don't aknowledge the "Christ Mass" aspect of Christmas.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Only if people don't aknowledge the "Christ Mass" aspect of Christmas.

Weren't the people of Amos [5v21; 8v10] and Malachi [2v3]
acknowledging having a feast day in God's name ?

If not in harmony with biblical truth,
can a religious feast or holy days really be acceptable to God ?

 

[Desert Snake]

Weren't the people of Amos [5v21; 8v10] and Malachi [2v3]
acknowledging having a feast day in God's name ?

If not in harmony with biblical truth,
can a religious feast or holy days really be acceptable to God ?

So many non-Christians celebrate Christmas though, unless you're saying that Christmas shouldn't be celebrated as a religious holiday? I'm not sure that I understand your opinion on this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If everything that has a pagan origin can be labeled "pagan" then all the holidays would be pagan. I think this is just factually untrue. They are Christian holiday's with pagan symbolism mixed in.:tree:

By the same token, they're now secular holidays with Christian (and pagan) symbolism mixed in.

lol only in modern times. Xmas started out as just an abbreviation for Christmas, with the mas meaning mass and the X as the first letter of the name Christ in Greek with it being a Chi. I mean, ever see the Chi-Rho?

Fun fact: the chi-rho didn't start out as a Christian symbol. It was a Roman symbol of good luck before Constantine adopted it for himself and his religion.

You know what blows my mind? People insisting that Christmas is either solely "pagan," or "secular," or "religious," or "commercialized," yada yada yada.

I don't think that saying that Christian is secular necessarily implies that it's only secular.

Christmas is both a secular holiday and a religious holiday. Which it is depends on the person.

What I personally object to (and this might be what you were getting at) is the argument made by some people that amounts to "because I celebrate this holiday religiously, you're not allowed to consider it secular for you."

 

[Kathryn]

What I personally object to (and this might be what you were getting at) is the argument made by some people that amounts to "because I celebrate this holiday religiously, you're not allowed to consider it secular for you."

Right - or "Because I consider Christmas to be secular, you're in denial by considering it a religious holiday."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Right - or "Because I consider Christmas to be secular, you're in denial by considering it a religious holiday."

:clap

 

[blackout]

Originally Posted by JacobEzra
lol only in modern times. Xmas started out as just an abbreviation for Christmas, with the mas meaning mass and the X as the first letter of the name Christ in Greek with it being a Chi. I mean, ever see the Chi-Rho?

Apparently not.

Fun fact: the chi-rho didn't start out as a Christian symbol. It was a Roman symbol of good luck before Constantine adopted it for himself and his religion.

Looks like JacobEzra's chosen meaning for Xmas
is no more pure bred or "correct", than my own.

Variable X now = "Good Luck"

It's an interesting variable .9.
Worthy of consideration and experimentation.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Just to add to the conversation... not EVERY place in the world celebrates Christmas with evergreen trees or mistletoe. In the Philippines, the land of my parents' generation and beyond, they hung star lanterns (parol) in echoing the search for Mary and Joseph looking for an inn to stay, as well as the wise men looking for the newborn baby who would become the Christ. They sing carols and dress up in their best clothes.

We have Noche Buena (a large meal) on Christmas Eve, and then attend Misa de Gallo (Midnight Mass, or literally, the "Rooster's Mass"). Nativity scenes abound everywhere.

The symbol that stands out for Philippine Christmases, is the Star of Bethlehem.

I doubt that Filipinos would have evergreen trees on a country subsisting of 70,000 islands. It still stands very much as a Christian holy day of celebration in the Philippines, along with the commercialism, unlike American Christmas traditions that seem to have more things muddled into its customs.

 

[blackout]

Christmas actually baffles me so much,
my favorite tree topper idea is a big Question mark.
(I think I'll actually make it this year)

My ultimate decorations are like
mystery flavor candy wrappers and such.
And anything colorful.
Just because colors are yummy.
One year we did a Mystery tree,
but last year it was more of a Candy tree.
White tree, lot's of bright candy colors.
Like a big cream sickle!
Some said it looked like ice cream.

Maybe we'll make it a Mystery Flavor tree this year.
A Treat Tree.

I really don't like the word Christmas to be honest,
or Santas or Mangers.
I'm not even partial to red and green.
It all really does nothing for me.
Wrapped things would be more fun
if they came in random paper,
and inside there were just some little personal thing
something symbolic
or a pretty stone
or an odd or unusual thing found in an antique store or consignment shop
or a hand made thing of personal meaning.

I think this year
I'm going to try out "Blissmas"

 

[blackout]

Just to add to the conversation... not EVERY place in the world celebrates Christmas with evergreen trees or mistletoe. In the Philippines, the land of my parents' generation and beyond, they hung star lanterns (parol) in echoing the search for Mary and Joseph looking for an inn to stay, as well as the wise men looking for the newborn baby who would become the Christ. They sing carols and dress up in their best clothes.

We have Noche Buena (a large meal) on Christmas Eve, and then attend Misa de Gallo (Midnight Mass, or literally, the "Rooster's Mass"). Nativity scenes abound everywhere.

The symbol that stands out for Philippine Christmases, is the Star of Bethlehem.

I doubt that Filipinos would have evergreen trees on a country subsisting of 70,000 islands. It still stands very much as a Christian holy day of celebration in the Philippines, along with the commercialism, unlike American Christmas traditions that seem to have more things muddled into its customs.

OMG! It's a Pentagram!

I love it.

Thank you Gaura Priya!

You know, I appreciate you all more than you know.
Even those of you I don't see a single thing eye to eye with.
You help me to see the world in new ways
expand my thinking to encompass new possibilities
and fine tune my Vision.

 

[Gaura Priya]

OMG! It's a Pentagram!

I love it.

Thank you Gaura Priya!

You know, I appreciate you all more than you know.
Even those of you I don't see a single thing eye to eye with.
You help me to see the world in new ways
expand my thinking to encompass new possibilities
and fine tune my Vision.

You're welcome! I just wish that I could celebrate Christmas ('Pasko') in the way that I would love to. I aim to next year... I want a parol (Christmas star lantern) and make all sorts of Filipino specialty sweets. I want to have a nativity scene and Christmas music playing around. And I wouldn't mind even going to Anglican mass...

I really do miss celebrating Christmas that I remember years upon years ago. It's sad that I don't get that opportunity anymore! I really hope and pray that I get to next year!

 

[Gaura Priya]

The same people who gather around the pagan tree to exchange gifts in the finest pagan tradition?

Practice trumps etymology.

When the celebration of Christmas spread to places, especially tropical ones like the Philippines and Samoa, Tahiti, etc. Such places retained more Christian motifs and customs, and created their own ones, independent of the 'winter-time' customs of the European pagans.

Christmas is not just from pagans... it's also a Christian tradition making new ones. Not every place has wintertime or snow, or a need for evergreens, red-and-greens and jingle bells.

 

[Revoltingest]

Xmas is whatever we want it to be.
Tis secular for me.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So many non-Christians celebrate Christmas though, unless you're saying that Christmas shouldn't be celebrated as a religious holiday? I'm not sure that I understand your opinion on this.

I recall as a child my uncle mentioning that soldiers brought the idea of Christmas to Japan and the Japaneses have Christmas trees, etc.
He felt that was going to bring the Japanese to Christ or Christianity.

People discuss back and forth about the intrusion of the secular into the sacred aspect of Christmas,
or the secular [commercial] becoming the sacralization of business. National holiday of material consumption.
Even with the Santa Claus myth, who is indispensable to merchants,
there is injected a sacred connection to that legend.
[We know Jesus never dressed in a Santa suit]

Using the old axiom truth that 'a tree is known by its fruit' [Matt 7v17]
has caused some to wonder about what is the holy/sacred connection or not.

Jesus taught [John 4vs23,24] that true worshipers would worship God in truth.
Jesus believed the Scriptures are religious truth or fact. [John 17v17]
Meaning religious myth or legend would Not be connected to biblical truth.
Mixing of biblical truth with pagan [non-biblical] has caused the original to shed it's old or Scriptural account into new man-made traditions or customs.
[Mark 7vs1-7,13;Matthew 15v9]

God's own people of Ezekiel [8v16] were in God's temple, but they were actually in there worshiping the sun. Such mixing or blending of worship was Not based on religious truth of Scripture, so God's favor or blessing was removed from them.

So, according to Scripture, how would God view today's religious sycretism [mixing or fusion of differing belief] including the secular being blended with the sacred ?

 

[no-body]

It's not if you have much of a choice to celebrate it if you are secular and have children. Nobody wants to be that kind of a scrooge just to prove a point.

I suspect many people celebrate it simply out of habit and an excuse to get together and eat, drink, have a good time, etc as my family does.