Nada
#
Cool.I too respect your view.Thank you for the nice response.Have a nice day and hopefully we will run into each other again.
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Christo-Paganism: What's the hap?
- Thread starter Sundance
- Start date
Cool.I too respect your view.Thank you for the nice response.Have a nice day and hopefully we will run into each other again.
No,not at all DJ.All is cool.I do appreciate your time, and your effort in explaining your view.Thank you.
Sure thing! thing and btw, I love JW's. They're incredibly wonderful individuals!
GoodbyeDave
Well-Known Member
A Christian creed states "I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth". Two points are obvious: firstly it doesn't say who's in heaven, and secondly it's a statement that most Pagans could happily make.
Africanist Churches consider the local Pagan gods to be equivalent to angels, and this view has been endorsed by John Mbiti, who is both a professor of religious studies and an Anglican priest. There are also the frequent references to "gods" in the Old Testament to take into account. Obviously if you're the sort of proddy fundie who sees satanism in praying to saints or owning a crucifix, you're going to have a fit at Christo-Pagans, but I can't see that genuine Christians can really object. But most will, of course.
The other question is whether Pagans can accept Christian teaching. I certainly can't. The other day I was reading a book by the sinologist Jordan Paper. He gave his Chinese wife a copy of Mark's gospel to read and asked for her comments: she couldn't accept the teaching or see anything to admire in Jesus.
Africanist Churches consider the local Pagan gods to be equivalent to angels, and this view has been endorsed by John Mbiti, who is both a professor of religious studies and an Anglican priest. There are also the frequent references to "gods" in the Old Testament to take into account. Obviously if you're the sort of proddy fundie who sees satanism in praying to saints or owning a crucifix, you're going to have a fit at Christo-Pagans, but I can't see that genuine Christians can really object. But most will, of course.
The other question is whether Pagans can accept Christian teaching. I certainly can't. The other day I was reading a book by the sinologist Jordan Paper. He gave his Chinese wife a copy of Mark's gospel to read and asked for her comments: she couldn't accept the teaching or see anything to admire in Jesus.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
My mistake. LDS?
Anyways, one of the few denominations I know that act in their faith.
Prayer is a form of celebration. If I took five minutes of my day tommorow to reflect (since celebrate seems to be a trigger word) on what Christ did for me, if Christian,and appreciate it, how is that wrong?
EDIT
Being grateful is not different than celebration. Many people think that there need to be some parade to celebrate. Not true. Just taking time out to reflect on youd resurrection through Him is a form of inner cebration. Baptism is a form of celebration.
Okay. Dont hold a banquet in Jesus' name. Thats not my point.
I didnt need you to give scripture that celebrations are pagan. They are not. Birthdays are not meaningless. I dont celebrate birthdays, but I know Today we do because we (anyone. Not everyone is a pagan) remember that we are born and we have life. We dont need candles and birthday cake. We can just say "I love you".
Do you get my point?
Take away Christ's birth date for a minute. Youre hung up on details. You mean to tell ne the apostles who sat around the Lord's table did not celebrate and cemmorate Jesus in communion with each other? The wedding of canan was not a celebration, what was it?
There is a lot of celebration in the Bible. God doesnt want the focus of thr celebration NOT the celebration itself to be on idols and other gods.
I dont know why celebration is wrong unless irs wrongly placed. Just because its not in the bible doesnt make it pagan. Paganism has specific criteria according th scripture, and some celebrations dont even come close if not mentioned.
Anyways, one of the few denominations I know that act in their faith.
Prayer is a form of celebration. If I took five minutes of my day tommorow to reflect (since celebrate seems to be a trigger word) on what Christ did for me, if Christian,and appreciate it, how is that wrong?
EDIT
Being grateful is not different than celebration. Many people think that there need to be some parade to celebrate. Not true. Just taking time out to reflect on youd resurrection through Him is a form of inner cebration. Baptism is a form of celebration.
Okay. Dont hold a banquet in Jesus' name. Thats not my point.
I didnt need you to give scripture that celebrations are pagan. They are not. Birthdays are not meaningless. I dont celebrate birthdays, but I know Today we do because we (anyone. Not everyone is a pagan) remember that we are born and we have life. We dont need candles and birthday cake. We can just say "I love you".
Do you get my point?
Take away Christ's birth date for a minute. Youre hung up on details. You mean to tell ne the apostles who sat around the Lord's table did not celebrate and cemmorate Jesus in communion with each other? The wedding of canan was not a celebration, what was it?
There is a lot of celebration in the Bible. God doesnt want the focus of thr celebration NOT the celebration itself to be on idols and other gods.
I dont know why celebration is wrong unless irs wrongly placed. Just because its not in the bible doesnt make it pagan. Paganism has specific criteria according th scripture, and some celebrations dont even come close if not mentioned.
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Politesse
Amor Vincit Omnia
I guess that label is meant to fit me, as I am active in Pagan and Christian groups alike. I certainly don't see syncretism as some kind of moral fault, and really, I'm not super interested in anyone's orthodoxy unless they can tell me why it is a good thing. Jesus himself was no lover of small-minded rule following, so I don't see myself as having fallen all that far from the tree. And European Paganism especially is a bit hard to avoid even if you are trying, given how thoroughly Pagan practices and philosophy became entertwined with Christianity over the centuries. So why try? I can't really imagine the eminent God caring what label is sticking to you today, or what name you call Him in what language. Why would she? I wouldn't, if I were God. We must all look like the tiniest of children... you don't cut off your children's hands and pour acid on the burns when you catch them in the cookie jar, you take them aside and softly explain why what you did is wrong. Such an admonition from my creator has not come yet, despite my many happy acquaintances with gods from other pantheons.
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Nada
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It sounds as if you are taking what I said about birthdays and making it seem as if I mean all celebrations.This is not the case though.
There is nothing wrong with celebrations according to the holy scriptures.But there is something wrong with celebrating birthdays.I already showed you in those passages you said I did not need to show.Everything I say is according to holy scripture,so please do not take it personally.I am just stating what is already said by God's word.That is why I always say,according to the holy scriptures.Everything you suggested about the disciples sitting around and not being able to celebrate anything is not correct.About weddings either.Of course people can celebrate.To even think such a thing is either silly or sarcastic talk.Lol..
What many fail to see is that celebrating birthday's in the holy scriptures is a form of idolatry.Self worship.Vanity.Putting ones self up on a pedestal is not godly.All praise goes to God.It is about pride.After all we only have one birth date really.We were all born once.There is no need to continue celebrating that same day over and over again.
"Just because its not in the bible doesnt make it pagan."
Those who are mentioned celebrating birthday's were pagan Kings of the world.Not God's people.That is a huge clue that only pagans practiced this custom.According to the holy scriptures of course.
Nada
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I am not a JW, but I believe in what they teach.
Nada
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Lol..No,not LDS Carlita.
I am trying to be a good Christian.I believe in what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach and preach but I am not a JW.Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thats odd, though. To only have a one time celebration of say, Christ's resurrection (taking out catholicism). The point of celebrating anything is of a couple reason gratitude, remembering the day. Its an anniverary. What God did not want you to do is misplace your celebrationa/communal worship/anniversary to idolism and false gods. I understand why you have a thing over Christmas. Easter not so much since the easter bunny has nothing to donwith Christ resurrection. Birthdays, though. Its not a "requirement." I dont celebrate my birthday but my family reminds me how old I am each year. Not because they are idololising. They just are sending anniversy wishes of my birth. That I am here and living for another year.
Our definitions today are different than scripture. To apply definitions back then to now is like my great aunt who, before she passed, didnt want any electricity in her home. She wanted to live like the people in the bible. A king james book on her lap as she discussed the finner points of scripture while rocking in her chair.
I understand your sentiment. I just see a clash between the context of your points and of mine if we take away the easter bunny, christmas trees, and birthday cards.
Not because they are idololising. They just are sending anniversy wishes of my birth. That I am here and living for another year.Our definitions today are different than scripture. To apply definitions back then to now is like my great aunt who, before she passed, didnt want any electricity in her home. She wanted to live like the people in the bible. A king james book on her lap as she discussed the finner points of scripture while rocking in her chair.
I understand your sentiment. I just see a clash between the context of your points and of mine if we take away the easter bunny, christmas trees, and birthday cards.
It sounds as if you are taking what I said about birthdays and making it seem as if I mean all celebrations.This is not the case though.
There is nothing wrong with celebrations according to the holy scriptures.But there is something wrong with celebrating birthdays.I already showed you in those passages you said I did not need to show.Everything I say is according to holy scripture,so please do not take it personally.I am just stating what is already said by God's word.That is why I always say,according to the holy scriptures.Everything you suggested about the disciples sitting around and not being able to celebrate anything is not correct.About weddings either.Of course people can celebrate.To even think such a thing is either silly or sarcastic talk.Lol..
What many fail to see is that celebrating birthday's in the holy scriptures is a form of idolatry.Self worship.Vanity.Putting ones self up on a pedestal is not godly.All praise goes to God.It is about pride.After all we only have one birth date really.We were all born once.There is no need to continue celebrating that same day over and over again.
"Just because its not in the bible doesnt make it pagan."
Those who are mentioned celebrating birthday's were pagan Kings of the world.Not God's people.That is a huge clue that only pagans practiced this custom.According to the holy scriptures of course.
Baladas
An Págánach
This is judgmental drivel.
Baladas
An Págánach
This makes no sense. So, one must know the EXACT date of an event for it to be possible to celebrate said event?
Nonsense.
I recognize and respect your right to blend these paths. I don't exactly understand the desire to do so, but perhaps you don't understand my beliefs. Who am I to say what is right or wrong in this matter?
Peace, brother.
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Nada
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Thats odd, though. To only have a one time celebration of say, Christ's resurrection (taking out catholicism). The point of celebrating anything is of a couple reason gratitude, remembering the day. Its an anniverary. What God did not want you to do is misplace your celebrationa/communal worship/anniversary to idolism and false gods. I understand why you have a thing over Christmas. Easter not so much since the easter bunny has nothing to donwith Christ resurrection. Birthdays, though. Its not a "requirement." I dont celebrate my birthday but my family reminds me how old I am each year.
Our definitions today are different than scripture. To apply definitions back then to now is like my great aunt who, before she passed, didnt want any electricity in her home. She wanted to live like the people in the bible. A king james book on her lap as she discussed the finner points of scripture while rocking in her chair.
I understand your sentiment. I just see a clash between the context of your points and of mine if we take away the easter bunny, christmas trees, and birthday cards.
Cool
I'm sure we can go for miles together talking back and forth about this.Lol.. I was tempted to comment back.Peace......
Nada
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I'm sorry.It was not meant to be.I guess I was too blunt.What I mean is that the disciples of Jesus never celebrated Jesus birthday according to the holy scriptures.I say "supposed" day because nowhere in the holy scriptures does it say december 25th is Jesus Christ birthday.This day was chosen about 300 years after Jesus Christ.So instead of Saturnalia,the winter solstice festival,worship of the Sun,it became Jesus Christ birthday,worship of the Son.Look into Constantine and his council's for further info into that matter.It is quite interesting.
As for the other holidays like Easter and Halloween,these things have nothing to do with Jesus or God.If you do not believe me the Catholic Encyclopedia itself says that it is of pagan descent.
The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: “A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter.The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . . The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—(1913), Vol. V, p. 227.
Forgive me if I sounded harsh at first,it was not my intension.
Peace!
Ps.I edited and highlighted the best parts for emphasis.Lol..
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Nada
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Well, we have dates for a reason right?
If God really wanted us to know when His Son Jesus Christ was born,I am sure He would have mentioned it in the holy scriptures if it was that important.What is important to see is what it was that God did tell us in His Word.......He told us when Jesus Christ died.........
So, we can see clearly that Jesus death is of more significance than his birth,since it gives the date of Nisan 14th ,the month of Abib, as his death date.He actually commanded that they remember that night.Luke 22:7-62 New Living Translation (NLT)
His death has more significance than his birth.
New International VersionEcclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Believe me, we can. I remember many of threads back that you said to me (rephrased) "even if its the right intentions, why would a christian want to incorporate anything pagan in their worship." Got me thinking. Then again, I see a lot of paganism in christianity. I side some with JW a bit. Especially with the diviniy stuff.Cool
Peace......
EDIT
I fell into the temptation.
peace.
Baladas
An Págánach
Well, we have dates for a reason right?
......He told us when Jesus Christ died.........
So, we can see clearly that Jesus death is of more significance than his birth,since it gives the date of Nisan 14th ,the month of Abib, as his death date.He actually commanded that they remember that night.Luke 22:7-62 New Living Translation (NLT)
His death has more significance than his birth.
New International VersionEcclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.
So if someone did not know their date of birth, why should it be celebrated?
This wasn't all that uncommon a century ago. The famous Louis Armstrong had no clue exactly when he was born.
So clearly, there is no reason to mark it at all, right?
To refuse to celebrate or acknowledge such a significant event is cheapening the individual's worth.
If Christ hadn't been born, he couldn't have died.
Baladas
An Págánach
I'm sorry.It was not meant to be.I guess I was too blunt.What I mean is that the disciples of Jesus never celebrated Jesus birthday according to the holy scriptures.I say "supposed" day because nowhere in the holy scriptures does it say december 25th is Jesus Christ birthday.This day was chosen about 300 years after Jesus Christ.So instead of Saturnalia,the winter solstice festival,worship of the Sun,it became Jesus Christ birthday,worship of the Son.Look into Constantine and his council's for further info into that matter.It is quite interesting.
As for the other holidays like Easter and Halloween,these things have nothing to do with Jesus or God.If you do not believe me the Catholic Encyclopedia itself says that it is of pagan descent.
The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: “A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter.The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . . The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—(1913), Vol. V, p. 227.
Forgive me if I sounded harsh at first,it was not my intension.
Peace!
Ps.I edited and highlighted the best parts for emphasis.Lol..
But what is wrong with that? Why not celebrate something that is worth celebrating in stead of something that isn't?
What exactly makes it wrong?
I am aware of the history. What makes it wrong in the here and now?
Ps. The rabbit is also a living creature, presumably made by God, correct?
Nada
#
Exactly!
An individuals worth can be cheapened by basing his or her worth simply on one day.What about the rest of their life?
Baladas
An Págánach
Very true! I think it would be wrong to base a person's worth on that one day.
BUT - That is the day that they came into the world. Thus, it is a fairly significant day. Without it, the person wouldn't exist.
Taking that day to acknowledge the individual is healthy.
This is one of the most harmful teachings of the JW in my eyes.