Christo-Paganism: What's the hap?

[Nada]

Very true! I think it would be wrong to base a person's worth on that one day.
BUT - That is the day that they came into the world. Thus, it is a fairly significant day. Without it, the person wouldn't exist.

Taking that day to acknowledge the individual is healthy.

This is one of the most harmful teachings of the JW in my eyes.

Have a nice day.

 

[Baladas]

Have a nice day.

Same to you.
I hope someday you will open your mind.

 

[Kirran]

I'm pretty sure BS doesn't go around trying to throw Bibles at people during birthday parties. So he's perfectly entitled to not celebrate his birthday, or participate in other people's birthday celebrations. Doesn't harm anybody.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm pretty sure BS doesn't go around trying to throw Bibles at people during birthday parties. So he's perfectly entitled to not celebrate his birthday, or participate in other people's birthday celebrations. Doesn't harm anybody.

Its not about Bible Student's choice. In my opinion, I find it belief not his choice odd to not celebrate by whatever means a very significant event given the history of it is practiced by pagans.

Thats like my not celebrating my mothers birthday because the history of birthdays are celebrated by murderers. Im not a murderer. My mother isnt a murderer. We have nothing to do with the history of Birthday-Murders just the "present" and personalized celebration of my mothers birth and new year to live.

 

[Nada]

Its not about Bible Student's choice. In my opinion, I find it belief not his choice odd to not celebrate by whatever means a very significant event given the history of it is practiced by pagans.

Thats like my not celebrating my mothers birthday because the history of birthdays are celebrated by murderers. Im not a murderer. My mother isnt a murderer. We have nothing to do with the history of Birthday-Murders just the "present" and personalized celebration of my mothers birth and new year to live.

You seem to be focused on just one aspect of the whole story I explained.Because murderers were the ones practicing birthdays is not the sole reason for not practicing birthday's by true Christians.This is not the reason one should not practice birthdays.It just shows WHO it was practicing birthdays.There is a huge difference.The holy scriptures is merely pointing out this fact.It was never God's people.It was always Pagan's.That's all.

It goes deeper than that.I explained many times in previous comments about Idolatry,self worship,pride,vanity etc..

So, we have the, who was doing it? And we also have the why?
You are only focusing on the word murderers and birthdays.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You seem to be focused on just one aspect of the whole story I explained.Because murderers were the ones practicing birthdays is not the sole reason for not practicing birthday's by true Christians.This is not the reason one should not practice birthdays.It just shows WHO it was practicing birthdays.There is a huge difference.The holy scriptures is merely pointing out this fact.It was never God's people.It was always Pagan's.That's all.

It goes deeper than that.I explained many times in previous comments about Idolatry,self worship,pride,vanity etc..

So, we have the, who was doing it? And we also have the why?
You are only focusing on the word murderers and birthdays.

I'm not understanding, actually. It just seems simple to me. If I understand you correctly, you don't celebrate birthdays because it was celebrated and originated from pagans. I am saying it doesn't matter the history and who originated the holiday, it's the sole focus on worshiping God as the center and only the center of the celebration. Same with birthdays and every other celebration practiced once by non-Christians (or pagans). I don't see how one can get out of it, really. Every practice we do to day was in some way practiced by people who were not Christian and, some who held (in a christian view) idolatrous beliefs.

It seems I'm focused on context and you're focusing on content.

For example, I will take Catholicism.

This history is obviously influence by Roman paganism. Christianity (or how you say Christendom) has pagan elements in it. That' a given.

One "pagan" (or pre-christian/folk Roman) practice was the full set up of Easter and Christmas. The flowers at the altar (which they call it an altar). The bowing to the altar; and, so forth. Since I am pagan, I see no problem with this. In a Christian, evangelical view, I see the problem.

Anyway, the content is the Eucharist, the altar, the flowers, transubstantiation, hosts, and so forth.

The context is worshiping CHRIST not other gods as the pagans did. The context is giving all focus to God and to no one else. (As they believe Jesus is God).

The reverence to Mary and the Saints are not pagan practices but folk traditions that every culture has to one extent or another. One can't separate these traditions from the beliefs itself. That's extracting half of the Jewish customs of reverence to prophets.

It just shows WHO it was practicing birthdays.There is a huge difference.The holy scriptures is merely pointing out this fact.It was never God's people.It was always Pagan's.That's all.​

Okay, I have clarification. Thank you. The BIG difference between the pagans then and some people today is that we are NOT worshiping other gods when celebrating these holidays.

On my mother's birthday, I am focusing on my mother not the gods pagans worshiped (pretending if they did on their own birthdays; which, I assume didn't exist then as a holiday. I think it's an American thing.). The WHO is my mother not a pagan god. I can careless what pagans worshiped if they indeed celebrated each other's birthday. The context is different.

Easter then and Easter now (which I'm sure Catholics may disagree; but, I see it coming outside in) is completely different. Easter then, the closest to celebrating Christ's resurrection is in Acts during the spread of Christ's message and the commemoration they had with the Gentiles, I believe bringing people to Christ (His Father's Words). Today, it has changed a bit. The offerings of the hosts to God to bless the hosts to become Jesus is not in Holy Scriptures. The point is not the content (the blessing, the offering up, etc), it's the context WHO are they offering the hosts for consecration. WHO they are asking for the blessings in which the entire congregation including the priests receive.

So, we have the, who was doing it? And we also have the why?
You are only focusing on the word murderers and birthdays.​

What I hear you're saying is:

We don't celebrate Christ's resurrection because

Pagans worshiped (Who) other gods.

(Why) They didn't want to worship the one true God? Maybe they had the right to worship the Gods they chose; but, God didn't like that for some weird reason.

So, because of the who and why, maybe that's why you don't celebrate it?

On the other hand the Context says something completely different.

The history is pagan oriented yes, but the who and why are completely different.

Christians worship Christ (Who) celebrate Christ's resurrection (Why) because they are acknowledging, making devotion, and giving their love to Christ for they, through Him, have the Hopes to be resurrected (faith) as He was. It has NOTHING to do with worshiping other gods.

--

I just don't understand how anyone can relate a Christian today's devotion and celebration of Christ's resurrection with the pagans completely different motive and focus of devotion and celebration to their gods. How in the world, outside of history. can anyone judge or interpret a Christian's devotion to Christ based on the celebrations that are pagan by history?

The two don't match up. Unless Christians are actually worshiping other gods in their celebration to Christ today, the two don't add up.

How do you relate the two other than the history?

 

[Kirran]

Let's do this.

Well, there is a simple answer as to why Jesus or God the Almighty would object to worshipping other gods.It is in the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

Jesus preached the Kingdom of the Almighty God,not gods.

So if we take God to be the Absolute, then one can interpret this verse (Exodus 20:3) to mean that one simply cannot worship that which is not God, because all worship goes to God. Like Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, 9:23-24 - "Those who worship other gods with faith and devotion also worship me, Arjuna, even if they do not observe the usual forms. I am the object of all worship, its enjoyer and Lord."

So it might be information, not a command.

I don't know how it was in the original Hebrew. Even if it was a command, I still think it could be interpreted as saying that one should remember that all forms are One. Always remember you are worshipping the Absolute, like that.

Matthew 4:17 From then on Jesus began to preach, "Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near."

God the Almighty does not respect other gods.

Turn to God. Again, God could be the Absolute here. Turn your soul towards God, turn your life towards God, cast off distractions. No conflict with Hinduism, or many Paganisms I imagine.

Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

So, from what we have gathered here in the holy scriptures,it seems that God is saying He is the one and only.

This is all according to the holy scriptures of the God of Israel Jehovah(Yahweh) of course.

"There is no god besides me", again similar to the point I made for Exodus 20:3. There is only God, there is only That.

 

[Nada]

What I hear you're saying is:

We don't celebrate Christ's resurrection because

Pagans worshiped (Who) other gods.

(Why) They didn't want to worship the one true God? Maybe they had the right to worship the Gods they chose; but, God didn't like that for some weird reason.

I am not saying that.I never once compared Christ resurrection to birthdays.Reasons for not celebrating birthdays have nothing at all to do with the resurrection of Christ.I already commented about all of this, and gave you my answers.What I am saying ,and what you are hearing, are two totally different things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am not saying that.I never once compared Christ resurrection to birthdays.Reasons for not celebrating birthdays have nothing at all to do with the resurrection of Christ.I already commented about all of this, and gave you my answers.What I am saying ,and what you are hearing, are two totally different things.

I compared to Christ resurrection to birthdays because they are both celebrations. I got the impression that both Christ Resurrection celebration and birthdays, in your view, are pagan in origin. Therefore, the reason for not celebrating it. If that is true, in the celebration of Christ resurrection I dont see how it is wrong to celebrate it because it has pre christian in origin. Are you saying it Is wrong? If yes "how" not why (which you gave in scripture) so?

 

[Nada]

I compared to Christ resurrection to birthdays because they are both celebrations. I got the impression that both Christ Resurrection celebration and birthdays, in your view, are pagan in origin. Therefore, the reason for not celebrating it. If that is true, in the celebration of Christ resurrection I dont see how it is wrong to celebrate it because it has pre christian in origin. Are you saying it Is wrong? If yes "how" not why (which you gave in scripture) so?

I already explained.What you thought I meant is incorrect.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I already explained.What you thought I meant is incorrect.

I know you explained why it is wrong with given scriptures. I just don't get the how. Call me silly; it's just not clicking that (I'll say God) would prevent anyone from celebrating His Son's resurrection. I remember someone else said "He was resurrected already. Why do we need to keep remembering something that has already happened?" I just scratch my head. I give up.

 

[Nada]

I know you explained why it is wrong with given scriptures. I just don't get the how. Call me silly; it's just not clicking that (I'll say God) would prevent anyone from celebrating His Son's resurrection. I remember someone else said "He was resurrected already. Why do we need to keep remembering something that has already happened?" I just scratch my head. I give up.

I give up too.Lol... Very confusing.You are not getting anything I am saying.

 

[EverChanging]

Hey, guys! As a returning eclectic Pagan (and new Christo-Pagan), I've been looking into this path for a while now, and I am hearing so many different people's opinions, both Christians and Pagans, on it. So, being the ever-curious guy I am, I have to know, what are your thoughts on Christo-Paganism, Christian Wicca, Christian Druidry, etc.? All responses from Christians and Pagans will be accepted! Blessed Be! )0(

You will get a lot of flack in certain Christian and neo-pagan circles for the "Christo-pagan" term and associated practices. From the neo-pagan side of things that doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly if the neo-pagans in practice worship blended pantheons on the same altar who have no historical connection or are known by the myths and lore to have hostilities to one another. In a religious movement that honors individualism and "whatever works" I tend to think this is some left over Christian baggage. It's as if it's fine to invent religious practices or even blend elements of historic religions in general, but Christianity alone must remain "pure." (As a side note, "pagan" is not a very descriptive term so it is difficult to maintain that it absolutely excludes any Christian elements or even the idea of Jesus as a god.)

On the Christian side of things, many of them have very fixed concepts of orthodoxy and orthopraxy and simply see their version of Christianity as the only right way of doing things, even the only valid religon. But there are problems with this. There is no objective way to know which version of Christianity is true even if the choices are narrowed down to the pre-reformation schisms: Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, the Oriental Orthodox, and so on.

It is also impossible to really know what the original Christians believed. I suspect there were a number of Christianities. The theology of St. Paul is very different from what is found in the Gospels and even the other Apostles. Even rituals like the Eucharist are hard to pin down. The synoptic gospels have differing accounts of what was involved (St. John lacks an account altogether) and what is described in the Bible is very different from modern Eucharists. There are historical records of Eucharists involving only water, those involving only bread. The Didache lacks any reference to the institution narrative, the real presence, the Body and Blood, or an epiclesis. Even among Christians who had a more "orthodox" conception of the Eucharist we find practices in the later first and early second century in which Christians took some of the consecrated Bread (Body) home to commune with it during the week all alone and outside of the context of the community or liturgy. How close is that to what Jesus meant when he said "Do this..."

A number of groups in the second century claimed a special gnosis. I seem to remember some of their texts mentioning Hercules alongside Noah, Moses, and Jesus. Origen, an early church father, had a different conception of the Trinity, affirmed the pre-existence of souls, and other peculiar doctrines.

Folk practices are still prevalent in certain Christian cultures, some of them orthodox, some not. This is also true of some Baptists and Pentecostals, not just Catholics.

Then there are the remnants of henotheism (a form of polytheism) left over in the Jewish scriptures revealing a complex history of development in Judaism. This aspect is very interesting to me.

Your approach to Christo-paganism will depend on what you think about the Bible, the canon, deity, and so on -- as with any other Christian or Christian-influenced practice. The historical record of Christianity is interesting, but it cannot tell us which theology is the truth if any. It comes down to faith and whether you can give your assent to it.

I don't find the term "pagan" very useful as a description of my beliefs and practices, but I have run into a lot of problems with institutional Christianity and my beliefs and practices are different than the mainstream. Christian symbolism is in my blood, but my practices and arrangement of those symbols are quite different and some of my own ceremonies were created by myself. Depending on how things go with the institutional Church and community I could pursue the path outside of mainstream structures and probably feel comfortable with it, although I'd probably describe it as Christo-Eclecticism. I wouldn't worry too much what others say about it. I simply don't share much information about my path with others without good reason and then only if I believe they will respect it.

 

[HekaMa'atRa]

First off Carlita,I am not Jehovahs Witness.Second,one does not celebrate Jesus Birthday because," Died for you 2. Gave you life and 3. Gave you promise to your resurrection as He was resurrected." Being grateful for this, and the supposed day of birth of Christ, are two totally different things.

The holy scriptures explains exactly how God feels about the matter.First I shall begin with the OT.
We can clearly see that it was only pagans who celebrated this vain day.

Genesis 40:20 "....Thus it came about on the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday,"
22 but he hanged the chief baker, just as Joseph had interpreted to them.…

Here is one in the NT.

Mark 6:21 Finally the opportune time came. On his birthday Herod gave a banquet for his high officials and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee.


27 So he immediately sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s head. The man went, beheaded John in the prison,


Both of these men were pagan kings.Both had someone murdered.


So from these passages we can gather that only pagans were celebrating this pagan custom of birthday's.It never mentions anyone else ever celebrating a birthday in the holy scriptures,other than pagans.

Here is another scripture that makes it clear that birthdays are meaningless.

Ecclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.

So,making a name for ones self with a good reputation, and serving God,is what is important.At birth one has no established reputation.
"For those who have established a good name over the years, the day of death is indeed better in that respect than the day of birth"

WOL

So, birthdays are meaningless, really.It is a pagan custom.Never will you find any of God's servants doing this.Never will you find anyone mentioned doing this around Jesus either.No one ever celebrated his birthday and there is no record of this.Jesus was never born on december 25th.The HS never mentions this day.

But nowhere in the bible does it say "thou shall not celebrate birthdays" right? There could of been non-pagans celebrating family birthdays - it just so happens they were never mentioned. Pagans today are driving cars, using cellphones, and typing on laptops. The bible doesn't make mentioning of using these... Might have to give them up. Not to mention the days of the week and names of the months are all pagan in nature - real Christians are fine with calling today Saturday but can't recognize a birthday? Fascinating....

It seems to me this JW belief is self created based on their interpretation of a story.

 

[Pastor Frank]

As a Christopagan I feel it is best to find a balance that works best for you. The path may not come easy but in time you will be on the path that is for you.

 

[Aštra’el]

I am pagan, and YHWH is the supreme God of my pantheon. I would not use the term "Christo-Pagan" because I do not equate Christ with YHWH, or believe that Christ is a god.

Some pagans acknowledge me as pagan, some do not. I could care less. Their approval is completely irrelevant to my spiritual-religious system. I will continue to incorporate elements of any religion I wish, absorbing strength, power, wisdom and beauty whenever I will... regardless of what labels confused people use to describe me.

 

[VioletVortex]

First off, I want to point out that my response is not necessarily intended to be an insult to followers of Christo-Pagan religions, rather, I'm talking about the concept of fusing Christianity and Paganism.

The idea of fusing Paganism and Christianity is absolutely disgusting to me. Pagan religions are native to particular lands, and should not be touched by other religions, like the were in the past. Not only are the philosophies often vastly different, but it's insulting to Pagan religions to Christianize them.

 

[Politesse]

First off, I want to point out that my response is not necessarily intended to be an insult to followers of Christo-Pagan religions, rather, I'm talking about the concept of fusing Christianity and Paganism.

The idea of fusing Paganism and Christianity is absolutely disgusting to me. Pagan religions are native to particular lands, and should not be touched by other religions, like the were in the past. Not only are the philosophies often vastly different, but it's insulting to Pagan religions to Christianize them.

So your Paganism is "pure"? None of it was borrowed from anyone? What town are you claiming was the origin of all your beliefs?

 

[VioletVortex]

So your Paganism is "pure"? None of it was borrowed from anyone? What town are you claiming was the origin of all your beliefs?

My beliefs are a revival of Germanic/Norse Paganism, known by many as Odinism, Wotanism, Heathenism etc. The ancient Norse and the ancient Germans worshiped the same pantheon, and they held the same spiritual views. While my Paganism is purely based off of ancient Odinsim, it's my own interpretation of it. It's not really a religion, it's just a spiritual worldview.

My point is that European Paganism has very little in common with Abrahamic mythology, and there is really no way to straddle the line between the two. There is a huge cultural clash between the cultures originating in Europe and those that came from the desert. They do not work well together

 

[Politesse]

My beliefs are a revival of Germanic/Norse Paganism, known by many as Odinism, Wotanism, Heathenism etc. The ancient Norse and the ancient Germans worshiped the same pantheon, and they held the same spiritual views. While my Paganism is purely based off of ancient Odinsim, it's my own interpretation of it. It's not really a religion, it's just a spiritual worldview.

My point is that European Paganism has very little in common with Abrahamic mythology, and there is really no way to straddle the line between the two. There is a huge cultural clash between the cultures originating in Europe and those that came from the desert. They do not work well together

Well, we clearly disagree. I find your argument spurious in that "Odinism" was not a religion at the time we're talking about, and I do not agree that Christ's message and sacrifice were for any particular nation alone. Neither ancient Germans nor early Christians were big on exclusionary thinking. Why shouldn't they work together? Odin wanders far, and Christ's message was not particular.