Churchianity has Hidden the REAL God and the REAL Christ for 2,000 years!

[sooda]

What do you think this is a picture of?

Our Lady of Lourdes?

 

[Iymus]

Pretty postcard.. Who taught you to worship that?

the ones who seemingly preach and interpret

In the beginning was the Word
The same was in the beginning God.

Who, being God, thought it not robbery to be God:

And I saw, and bare record that this is God.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee and Jesus Christ the only true God, whom thou hast sent.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is God?

----------------------------
from these verses

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

-------------------

 

[Iymus]

I thought we'd settled this.


John also says, "Those who have seen me have seen the Father."

why not cite the verse and specific context within that chapter?

 

[sojourner]

Our Lady of Lourdes?

I betting that's not the answer we'll get.

 

[sojourner]

why not cite the verse and specific context within that chapter?

Why bother? You know it's there as well as I. I'm not here to play little games with you.

 

[Iymus]

Why bother? You know it's there as well as I. I'm not here to play little games with you.

Very Interesting how the response seems like shaming language. Are you expecting a contentious response?

In any case since you have refused which is your liberty to do so; so then I will give context for those who might be disingenuous or even deceitful.

Normally when it comes to context; we can get insight from either the previous or following verses.

Jesus said

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Why did Jesus say that? well in the following verses he said;

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

What does this mean? see highlighted

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

So the context and emphasis of "John 14:9" is that he that hath seen me hath seen the Father because the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: believe me for the very works' sake.

By seeing The Son we see the words and works of the Father because The Son is subject unto his will. Here are collaborative verses from other chapters

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


------------------------

You are seemingly denying that The Son came out of God our Father and came into the world and will go go back to God our Father.

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

The disciples understood this in the end

Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

---------

Isn't John 3:16 supposed to be one of the most well known verses yet it does not seem to be taken to heart, especially in conjunction with the following verse.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Essentially God sent not himself but his only begotten Son.

 

[sojourner]

Very Interesting how the response seems like shaming language. Are you expecting a contentious response?

In any case since you have refused which is your liberty to do so; so then I will give context for those who might be disingenuous or even deceitful.

Normally when it comes to context; we can get insight from either the previous or following verses.

Jesus said

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Why did Jesus say that? well in the following verses he said;

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

What does this mean? see highlighted

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

So the context and emphasis of "John 14:9" is that he that hath seen me hath seen the Father because the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: believe me for the very works' sake.

By seeing The Son we see the words and works of the Father because The Son is subject unto his will. Here are collaborative verses from other chapters

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


------------------------

You are seemingly denying that The Son came out of God our Father and came into the world and will go go back to God our Father.

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

The disciples understood this in the end

Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

---------

Isn't John 3:16 supposed to be one of the most well known verses yet it does not seem to be taken to heart, especially in conjunction with the following verse.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Essentially God sent not himself but his only begotten Son.

Yeah it's a little terse. I thought (as I said) we'd settled this. But you seem to be on it like a dog on a bone.

You sure do waste a lot of bandwidth on something that isn't pertinent to my post. None of this has anything to do with whether a postcard pic is an idol or not. I gave perfectly reasonable explanations of the difference between an idol and an icon.

And I don't plan to argue trinitarian theology with you.

 

[Cooky]

Either way we are not supposed to have any graven image and the mainstream Christian image used to represent Most High seems to be a graven image.

That's the kind of radicalism you're dabbling in. You tried to agree with him, and he tells you you're wrong. I don't deal with people like that -but that's how fundies are.

 

[Iymus]

Yeah it's a little terse. I thought (as I said) we'd settled this. But you seem to be on it like a dog on a bone.

You sure do waste a lot of bandwidth on something that isn't pertinent to my post. None of this has anything to do with whether a postcard pic is an idol or not. I gave perfectly reasonable explanations of the difference between an idol and an icon.

And I don't plan to argue trinitarian theology with you.

Ahh I think I understand now. You want to settle this while having the last say or word.
However don't necessarily expect to have your cake and eat it to.

If the NT says that No Man has seen God at any time especially when the Son was on earth then it should be reasonable that the Son is not the God of Abraham and his descendants.

If an image of a man is used to represent and magnify that he is God then it seems that should be a graven image or misrepresentation of God therefore an idol.

A graven image is as an idol and idolatry; as is Stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry.

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
--------------

Once it can be proven that Jesus is not the only true God; then this image should be a misrepresentation or graven image of God; since some use it in conjunction with private interpretation of scriptures, to magnify Jesus as being the only true God.

That's the kind of radicalism you're dabbling in. You tried to agree with him, and he tells you you're wrong. I don't deal with people like that -but that's how fundies are.

You say I tried to agree with him but then call it radicalism. You want me to apologize if at the end of the day that picture seems to be a graven image; since it as a false representation of the only true God, therefore graven image, therefore idolatry.

if it offends you, then continue to use that image as some kind of comfort and representation of the only true God in Heaven; do what makes you feel good if it pleases you.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

the term "graven image" is never defined in the Tanakh, so there are myriads of speculations as to what that may entail.

going back to address this a bit; I can agree that graven image seems to not clearly be defined and I can not say with certainty that i know the mechanics of it but at it's core a graven image is a misrepresentation of the God of Abraham and his descendants.

and

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

 

[metis]

I can agree that graven image seems to not clearly be defined and I can not say with certainty that i know the mechanics of it but at it's core a graven image is a misrepresentation of the God of Abraham and his descendants.

Probably at least that but it could be much more. Some Hasidic Jews believe that even drawings and photographs may be graven images. In Jerusalem, when we were going through their area, we were warned not to take photographs or we may have a rock or two thrown at us.

 

[sojourner]

Ahh I think I understand now. You want to settle this while having the last say or word.
However don't necessarily expect to have your cake and eat it to.

If the NT says that No Man has seen God at any time especially when the Son was on earth then it should be reasonable that the Son is not the God of Abraham and his descendants.

If an image of a man is used to represent and magnify that he is God then it seems that should be a graven image or misrepresentation of God therefore an idol.

A graven image is as an idol and idolatry; as is Stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry.

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
--------------

Once it can be proven that Jesus is not the only true God; then this image should be a misrepresentation or graven image of God; since some use it in conjunction with private interpretation of scriptures, to magnify Jesus as being the only true God.



You say I tried to agree with him but then call it radicalism. You want me to apologize if at the end of the day that picture seems to be a graven image; since it as a false representation of the only true God, therefore graven image, therefore idolatry.

if it offends you, then continue to use that image as some kind of comfort and representation of the only true God in Heaven; do what makes you feel good if it pleases you.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:



going back to address this a bit; I can agree that graven image seems to not clearly be defined and I can not say with certainty that i know the mechanics of it but at it's core a graven image is a misrepresentation of the God of Abraham and his descendants.

and

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

If you don't know what an idol is, Ace, you can just say so. You don't have to waste all the bandwidth making yourself look bad.

 

[Iymus]

If you don't know what an idol is, Ace, you can just say so. You don't have to waste all the bandwidth making yourself look bad.

I at least know or can perceive that an idol is a misrepresentation of God because God is not an idol. Therefore with any image that is a misrepresentation of God ; I believe I can come to a reasonable conclusion that it can be classified as a graven image therefore an idol and idolatry.

I also know

Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

with this being the case; it should be reasonable that the nations will defend their idols to the death and behind apologetics along with possible shaming and crafty language. therefore not my intention to take it personal.
----------------------

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[sojourner]

I at least know or can perceive that an idol is a misrepresentation of God because God is not an idol

No, that’s not it. Remember: an idol has power in and of itself and is worshiped. It has nothing to do with a “misrepresentation” of any deity. The idol is the deity, itself.

the rest of your post is non sequitur.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Here is a question. Every picture or statue I have seen of Jesus shows him with long hair. I Corinthian 11:14 tells us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. Would Jesus really bring shame to himself by having long hair? Does anyone really know what Jesus looked like or is this just some made up picture like so much else that has been made up to keep people fro knowing the real Jesus?

 

[Iymus]

No, that’s not it. Remember: an idol has power in and of itself and is worshiped.

an idol has no power in and of itself. we gave it that power, so saying an idol has power in and of itself seems like idolatry first and foremost

From what I have read; A graven image and/or idol is used to represent God; It seemingly may be worshiped as God however that may not be the case.

For example Easter eggs symbolically seem to be in the body of Christ "which is of God" but not necessarily bowed down to.

-------------------------
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
------------

 

[Iymus]

Here is a question. Every picture or statue I have seen of Jesus shows him with long hair. I Corinthian 11:14 tells us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. Would Jesus really bring shame to himself by having long hair? Does anyone really know what Jesus looked like or is this just some made up picture like so much else that has been made up to keep people fro knowing the real Jesus?

could be an interesting discussion topic and you would be likely to get more or the most insight.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

could be an interesting discussion topic and you would be likely to get more or the most insight.

I was hoping to get some insight here.

 

[Iymus]

I Corinthian 11:14 tells us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair.

Paul had a context to it:

Perhaps in nature it is a shame for a man with soft or female facial traits to have long hair; and it is a shame for a woman with hard or masculine facial traits to have short hair.

also look at verse 16

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Based off verse 16 Paul was speaking verse 14 in specific context and in regards to something.
-------------------

Examining Torah Samson seemed to never shave his head and Absalom only seemed to cut his hair once a year. I see no mention of them being in transgression for such things.

Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.


2Sa 14:25 But in all Israel there was none to be so much praised as Absalom for his beauty: from the sole of his foot even to the crown of his head there was no blemish in him.
2Sa 14:26 And when he polled his head, (for it was at every year's end that he polled it: because the hair was heavy on him, therefore he polled it; he weighed the hair of his head at two hundred shekels after the king's weight.

Does anyone really know what Jesus looked like or is this just some made up picture like so much else that has been made up to keep people fro knowing the real Jesus?

most if not all pictures are made up to my knowledge.
a picture is said to be worth a thousand words so therefore a made up picture could be telling of something.

 

[sooda]

Probably at least that but it could be much more. Some Hasidic Jews believe that even drawings and photographs may be graven images. In Jerusalem, when we were going through their area, we were warned not to take photographs or we may have a rock or two thrown at us.

When I was very young the Bedouin in Saudi Arabia were like that about having their picture taken or pictures in magazines. I do have a couple of photos of Bedouin women unveiled with tattoos on their chins.

 

[sooda]

Here is a question. Every picture or statue I have seen of Jesus shows him with long hair. I Corinthian 11:14 tells us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. Would Jesus really bring shame to himself by having long hair? Does anyone really know what Jesus looked like or is this just some made up picture like so much else that has been made up to keep people fro knowing the real Jesus?

Jesus probably looked liked the Palestinian Arabs and Jews of today. .. slender build, medium height, olive skin. That's what the people of the Levant looked like.

But, you know every culture depicts Jesus according to the way their population looks. For Europeans Jesus had fair skin, sandy hair and blue eyes.