• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Claims vs. Beliefs

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
  • There are not enough water molecules on earth to account for a flood as described by the Bible. Where are those molecules now?
  • By what mechanism the were the drastic changes in angular moment negated?
  • How did the olive tree survive? How did any vegetation survive?
  • How did the sea plankton survive the decrease in salination.
  • How did the fresh water plankton survive the increase.
  • Why don't we find fossils from all species on the same stratigraphic layer?
  • How did the ark survive 200 foot waves (at minimum)?
  • How did the ark survive boiling seas? Superheated air?
  • What was the actual animal count of the animals on the ark? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?
  • How much food was required to feed all the animals for one year?
  • Why aren't the coral reefs dead?
  • Why is there evidence against a flood in the varve record? Stalactite formation? Worldwide human habitation?

A lot of those questions you would need to know, which you don’t, in order reject the biblical narrative. Which you don’t only speculation.

They are rhetorical questions and should be understood as statements rather than attempts to solicit answers. They could all be rewritten as declarative sentences: 'The olive tree would not have survived.'

The list of objections is actually longer:

[1] A wooden boat made to bible specifications would have broken in half with the first three foot wave.

[2] A wooden boat that size without a rudder would founder and sink with the first set of five foot waves. The largest ships made of wood, by teams of shipbuilders, using better technology have been no longer than 300 feet. The Santa Maria was only 75 feet long. Genesis 6:15 puts the ark at 450 feet. It would be impossible for a ship this size to be made seaworthy, especially in light of the technology and the building team.

[3] There was only one hatch - in the top. How did they muck out the manure of five million species of animals?

[4] Once the salt water receded, where was the vegetation necessary for life? What did the carnivores eat until the planet was repopulated? How did the animals get back to their habitats without food or fresh water?

[5] What did the meat-eaters eat? Every time Noah fed the lions or the tigers, *poof* - another species of animal goes extinct.

[6] There is not enough water on the earth, to flood all the mountains, as specified in the Bible.

[7] If it did rain enough water [magic?] to cover all the mountains in only forty days, the rainfall would be as dense as actual water - like being in a waterfall, which would have destroyed Noah's wooden boat in minutes.

[8] Noah did not bring trees on board. Trees die when drowned. Once Noah opened his boat, he would have seen nothing but deadwood and mud. All the herbivores would starve within days.

[9] If the human race descended from Noah and his sons, we would see a genetic bottleneck in the human genome roughly 4,000 years back. Do we see this? No.

[10] The population of the world is too high if all humanity came from only four breeding pairs a few thousand years ago.

[11] A 450ft boat could not hold two or seven or whatever of every species. The number and variation of species of insects alone-- would have filled up the ark, hundreds of times over.

[12] Why are there ancient civilizations with continuous histories dating back to long before the generation of Noah? China and the Egyptians have such continuous histories, with no world sterilizing flood in them.

[13] Cave paintings in Europe are drawn in Charcoal. Immersion in water would have erased them. These are 15,000 years and older.

[14] If there were a global flood, you would see a universal, world-wide layer of compressed mud dating the that time. This is not the case.

[15] Putting enough fresh [rain] water into the salt oceans to cover the mountains, would dilute it to dangerous levels killing all marine life

[16] The number and variation of species of insects alone would have filled up the ark hundreds of times over. The number and variation of bird species including unique species from all the islands, would have filled up the ark multiple times over.

[17] How did animals get from Australia to the ark, or from the ark back to Australia? The animals living there now go back to pre-historic times, and most are unique to that continent. Koalas require special diets. How did Mr and Mrs Koala carry their food with them all the way from Australia?​

Once again, just translate any rhetorical question into its declarative form: The koalas would not have gotten from Australia to the Middle East. Nor the emperor penguins, nor the tigers.

The problem with people who only believe in one aspect (the natural world you can see) is you rule out God altogether like He doesn’t interject Himself into His Creation thus you rule out any supernatural things.

That's not a problem with critical thinking. That's a feature. We want to keep ideas like that off of our mental maps because they lack sufficient evidentiary support for a critical thinker to believe. These things can only be believed by faith, and we strive to keep such ideas out of the collection of ideas believed to be true. Faith is not be a path to truth. Every wrong idea can be believed by faith. If one considers it important to keep wrong ideas out, he learns the methods of critical thinking, which include the laws of reason and a list of logical fallacies to avoid, ideas that take one off of the path to sound conclusions.

The supernatural and gods are not ruled out. They've never been ruled in. There is insufficient reason to believe that such a thing exists. Also, the concept is incoherent upon close inspection. Nothing that exists and can interact with nature is itself a part of nature. The idea that denizens of this realm are causally connected to ours such that it can inject revelation and answer prayer, but that it isn't detectable from nature even in principle is incoherent.

Are you familiar with neutrinos? They are tiny subatomic particles that only barely interact with other matter. They pass through bodies and even stars like those things are not there, which makes the neutrinos almost not there. Their ability to affect other matter correlates with their detectability. The less effect neutrinos have on other matter, the les detectable they are and vice versa. Taken to the extreme, where neutrinos never interacted with matter, they would be utterly undetectable. That's where the concept of the supernatural breaks down. It posits a realm that can interact with this one but cannot itself be detected.
 
Well you are entitled to deny objective scientific facts of course, but I cannot concur. I should also be obliged to point out the obvious bias in such a claim, since you don't use religious beliefs to post here, but technology derived from science, if that science is secondary to your belief in the power of prayer, why aren't you just praying your message to us, but instead relying on scientifically derived knowledge? One assumes you would go to a doctor is you were ill, or a mechanic to fix your car, why not abandon these "secondary" methods of acquiring knowledge, and only pray to become better or your car to be fixed?
Actually I am a Master HVAC technician, this wouldn’t have happened without God saving me as well as empowering me to be able to live a godly life.
I’m so glad for your comments! They are reminding me of all the great thing God has done for me.
As for mechanics, I appreciate when engineers of HVAC equipment have the techs in minds that maintain and repair them. You can tell the engineer out thought and detail into them when you can easily get to the parts and work on them. I don’t think this stuff just put itself together.
When I look at creation I see a master, intelligent, wise, architect and engineers handy-work.
What separates human beings from the rest of the animal world? We aren’t stronger, but we have intelligence, wisdom, understanding as well as authority over them, this didn’t come from evolutionary processes but from God. That’s how I see it.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Actually I am a Master HVAC technician, this wouldn’t have happened without God saving me as well as empowering me to be able to live a godly life.

This is the same claim you have made repeatedly, as I keep saying, I don't believe it, since you can demonstrate no objective evidence to support it, and I can lend no credence to subjective unevidenced anecdote.

When I look at creation I see a master, intelligent, wise, architect and engineers handy-work.

Well you would, if you start with unevidenced assumption it is a "creation", it's hard to imagine a better example of a begging the question fallacy used to create a textbook circular reasoning fallacy.

What separates human beings from the rest of the animal world?

Nothing, we are part of the animal kingdom, that is axiomatic.

We aren’t stronger, but we have intelligence, wisdom, understanding as well as authority over them,

We have evolved a brain that enables us to manipulate our environment in a way other animals cannot, the idea this gives us authority over them strikes me as unfounded hubris, not least because our world was just brought to an abrupt standstill by a simple virus mutation.

this didn’t come from evolutionary processes but from God.

Another unevidenced assertion, and since we evolved a mere 200k years ago, the facts refute this idea.

That’s how I see it.

By denying objective scientific facts, as I said. Your only response seems to be repetition of those denials, in favour of your unevidenced beliefs.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Already looked at that one, not that great in my opinion

I thought your expertise was in engineering, how does that qualify you to critically examine the field of evolutionary biology exactly, and FWIW that database is vast, so I am dubious you could have given the evidence that you asked for, more than a cursory glance.

As I keep saying, you may deny scientific facts in favour of your unevidenced beliefs if that is what you want, but they remain objectively evidenced scientific facts.
 
As I keep saying, you may deny scientific facts in favour of your unevidenced beliefs if that is what you want, but they remain objectively evidenced scientific facts.
There are scientific facts and then the problem is with the subjective interpretation of those facts.
 
We have evolved a brain that enables us to manipulate our environment in a way other animals cannot, the idea this gives us authority over them strikes me as unfounded hubris, not least because our world was just brought to an abrupt standstill by a simple virus muta
If human beings were comprised just of flesh, bones and had no soul or spirit, we could just replace bad parts when they go bad or stop working like if you were to drown and keep living. But the spiritual law doesn’t work that way, once a person dies and there soul and spirit leave the body that’s it unless God intervenes.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your claims contradict each other, the order they were posted is irrelevant to that point, it seems you'd rather create a red herring than address the fact you have yet again posted contradictory ideas.
The order in which I posted those posts is very relevant, because since I posted the OP I have come to some realizations, thanks to @Nimos and @It Aint Necessarily So, who helped me see a different perspective.

So are you claiming that a person cannot change their mind about something over the course of time?
 
Another unevidenced assertion, and since we evolved a mere 200k years ago, the facts refute this idea.
You really don’t know anything of 200k years ago because that’s subjective from a naturalistic point of view. Is there any historical record written to verify any of your interpretations? What year was written and recorded information found approximately?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
My qualifications are from God I said, qualified to discern Truth from error.

So no then, you are not qualified to critically refute scientific evidence for evolution.

You do believe there is objective truth, correct?

Yes, I don't however believe the best way to determine what is objectively true, is by a subjective and unevidenced claim to have a hotline to a deity, this is so obviously the antithesis of objective, that I find the claim risible.

Meaning something that is true for everyone.

Like species evolution then.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You really don’t know anything of 200k years ago because that’s subjective from a naturalistic point of view. Is there any historical record written to verify any of your interpretations? What year was written and recorded information found approximately?
So backwards. We do know because that knowledge comes from a naturalistic point of view. Don't believe me? Jump off of the Empire State Building and see what happens. It is naturalism that tells you not to do that.

And yes, the evidence is literally written in stone.
 
Are you familiar with neutrinos? They are tiny subatomic particles that only barely interact with other matter. They pass through bodies and even stars like those things are not there, which makes the neutrinos almost not there. Their ability to affect other matter correlates with their detectability. The less effect neutrinos have on other matter, the les detectable they are and vice versa. Taken to the extreme, where neutrinos never interacted with matter, they would be utterly undetectable. That's where the concept of the supernatural breaks down. It posits a realm that can interact with this one but cannot itself be detected.
Ok so I wasn’t familiar with neutrinos and looked at some information, because these are hard to detect I’m not sure how this would make the concept of the supernatural break down?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If human beings were comprised just of flesh, bones and had no soul or spirit, we could just replace bad parts when they go bad or stop working

Well we can? Do you really not know this? We can even transplant heart valves from pigs, as they are a very close evolutionary relative to humans.

like if you were to drown and keep living.

You've lost me sorry?

the spiritual law doesn’t work that way, once a person dies and there soul and spirit leave the body that’s it unless God intervenes.

You're back to making unevidenced assertions again. Unless you can demonstrate something approaching objective evidence for your claims, they are meaningless.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
So are you claiming that a person cannot change their mind about something over the course of time?
Did I remotely say that? If you mean to say you were wrong in one of those claims just say that, rather then suggest I am wrong to highlight the contradiction.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You really don’t know anything of 200k years ago because that’s subjective from a naturalistic point of view.

No it was not subjective, I'm not offering an opinion.

"So far, the earliest finds of modern Homo sapiens skeletons come from Africa. They date to nearly 200,000 years ago on that continent. They appear in Southwest Asia around 100,000 years ago and elsewhere in the Old World by 60,000-40,000 years ago."

<LINK>

Is there any historical record written to verify any of your interpretations?

What interpretations, I've offered none?

What year was written and recorded information found approximately?

For what?
 
Well we can? Do you really not know this? We can even transplant heart valves from pigs, as they are a very close evolutionary relative to humans.



You've lost me sorry?



You're back to making unevidenced assertions again. Unless you can demonstrate something approaching objective evidence for your claims, they are meaningless.
I’m not talking about a transplant on a living human being, I’m saying once a person’s spirit and soul leave their body there is no bringing them back to life like they were, you can keep them alive by machine. But unless God supernaturally returned their soul and spirit to that body, they aren’t coming back.
If we were solely flesh and bones you could bring people back to life easily I would think. Just another piece of machinery.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I’m saying once a person’s spirit and soul leave their body there is no bringing them back to life like they were, you can keep them alive by machine.

More unevidenced assumption, and this is obviously a circular reasoning fallacy, using a begging the question fallacy. You are simply assuming a spirit or soul exists. Then further assuming this is why someone can't be brought back to life, as if cell degeneration and brain damage due to oxygen starvation don't explain this already, without the recourse for any superstition.

unless God supernaturally returned their soul and spirit to that body, they aren’t coming back.

Unevidenced assumption, again.

If we were solely flesh and bones you could bring people back to life easily I would think. Just another piece of machinery.

You're not making much sense, but if someone's heart has stopped it can be restarted, but if their brain has been deprived of oxygen long enough, then obviously it may sustain irreparable damage. The point is that nothing supernatural is needed to explain this, these are just unevidenced assumptions you keep reeling off, they're meaningless. Our consciousness is in every single instance present only when there is a live functioning brain, when it dies, that consciousness disappears forever.
 
Last edited:
Top