Climate change and fossil fuels

[danieldemol]

Car vs truck? Non sequitur.

Not exactly, @Truth in love didn't specify that he was only arguing against the introduction of electric for the heaviest class of trucks. For everything below the heaviest class of trucks that use the road an EV will have the benefits without the offset of extra road maintenance. So millions of cars can and should be EVs.

Now take that exact same truck being powered by batteries.
Which truck would be heavier?

The EV would be, however @Truth in love hasn't provided any research that the extra battery wait would be offset by environmental damage from increased road costs, he has only asserted it.

So in summary - his argument is only of interest for the heaviest class of trucks that use a road, and it is an area for research to be done.

In my opinion.

 

[We Never Know]

Not exactly, @Truth in love didn't specify that he was only arguing against the introduction of electric for the heaviest class of trucks. For everything below the heaviest class of trucks that use the road an EV will have the benefits without the offset of extra road maintenance. So millions of cars can and should be EVs.


The EV would be, however @Truth in love hasn't provided any research that the extra battery wait would be offset by environmental damage from increased road costs, he has only asserted it.

So in summary - his argument is only of interest for the heaviest class of trucks that use a road, and it is an area for research to be done.

In my opinion.

Fuel tax pays for roads. So should they put higher taxes on electricity because of EV's?

 

[Truth in love]

Sure, any energy source will have its downsides.
The goal should be about minimizing problems.
Renewable sources have net advantages.
(Except for ethanol.)

BTW....
The weight of cars is irrelevant to road life.
Large trucks do the real damage, since
damage increases exponentially with weight.
Electric cars are no harder on tires than others.

weight per sq inch of tire space would likely be the best measure of this.

Toyota Avalon Weight
How Much Does a Tesla Weigh? (Model S, 3, X & Y)


a newer Tesla can weigh over 5,000 lbs
Avalon’s are just over 3000, so not quite double but in a different class. That weight per inch of tire space looks to be less than a semi truck (found website where it looks like 3000lbs per tire is a typical limit. ) not sure the exact tire sizes. But more weight means tire and road wear out faster

 

[Truth in love]

Not exactly, @Truth in love didn't specify that he was only arguing against the introduction of electric for the heaviest class of trucks. For everything below the heaviest class of trucks that use the road an EV will have the benefits without the offset of extra road maintenance. So millions of cars can and should be EVs.


The EV would be, however @Truth in love hasn't provided any research that the extra battery wait would be offset by environmental damage from increased road costs, he has only asserted it.

So in summary - his argument is only of interest for the heaviest class of trucks that use a road, and it is an area for research to be done.

In my opinion.

you know it cracks me up that you think even the most basic common fact requires evidence form others but you keep spotting unsupported claims. Can you not follow the rules you want to have others follow?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Fuel tax pays for roads. So should they put higher taxes on electricity because of EV?

New technology often calls for new taxes. Fossils fuels have a limited lifetime now matter what we do. Eventually we will have to find another way to tax for road usage. I would think that a tax made by multiplying vehicular weight times miles travelled would be a fair tax. If one drove a heavier vehicle it will do more damage than a lighter one. If one drives more miles one does more damage than someone that drives almost none. Combine the two and we should be able to keep the roads funded.

 

[Subduction Zone]

you know it cracks me up that you think even the most basic common fact requires evidence form others but you keep spotting unsupported claims. Can you not follow the rules you want to have others follow?

You are always free to demand evidence from others. Sometimes people assume that everyone knows what they know. But if one makes a claim one should be willing to support it.

 

[Truth in love]

You are not approaching this problem rationally. One has to look at the big picture. Are the deaths of birds due to wind farms worse than the problems caused by burning fossil fuels? Is there a way to fix this problem? (There may be a rather easy one, as the Rolling Stones said "Paint it Black)

Painting Wind Turbine Blades Black Help Birds Avoid Deadly Collisions | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

We know that maintaining our present course will be one of the worst of all solutions so it is time to abandon it.

I’m actually quite rational on this. Maybe a bit tired of the lies, but still rational.

I lived in Oregon as million of acres burned besides logging was bad, “we have to remove dams to save the fish”. Never mind that the fish in the streams without dams were having the e same issues.

I’ve watched the cult of environmentalism be shoved down throats for many years. I reject it.

I want real solutions to real problems.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I’m actually quite rational on this. Maybe a bit tired of the lies, but still rational.

I lived in Oregon as million of acres burned besides logging was bad, “we have to remove dams to save the fish”. Never mind that the fish in the streams without dams were having the e same issues.

I’ve watched the cult of environmentalism be shoved down throats for many years. I reject it.

I want real solutions to real problems.

And sorry, but that is the sort of nonsense that needs to be properly supported. By the way I am in no hurry to knock down damns for the salmon. The problems that salmon face may be far more complex than those of a few dams and if we did what would be the cost of increased demands on fossil fuels?

Just because a topic is complex does not make it nonsense.

 

[We Never Know]

New technology often calls for new taxes. Fossils fuels have a limited lifetime now matter what we do. Eventually we will have to find another way to tax for road usage. I would think that a tax made by multiplying vehicular weight times miles travelled would be a fair tax. If one drove a heavier vehicle it will do more damage than a lighter one. If one drives more miles one does more damage than someone that drives almost none. Combine the two and we should be able to keep the roads funded.

They need to start figuring something out.
Right now EVe's are not having to pay a fuel tax. Taxing the electric at a higher rate to cover them would make people paying a fuel tax also pay higher electric bills.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They need to start figuring something out.
Right now EVe's are not having to pay a fuel tax. Taxing the electric at a higher rate to cover them would make people paying a fuel tax also pay higher electric bills.

Yes, that cannot work long term. Right now they are trying to get people to switch to EV's. They are not yet a significant part of traffic, but by the time they are a significant percentage of vehicles on the road we will need as new and fairer tax structure. Right now EV owners are benefitting from this, but trust me, it is only temporary.

 

[We Never Know]

Yes, that cannot work long term. Right now they are trying to get people to switch to EV's. They are not yet a significant part of traffic, but by the time they are a significant percentage of vehicles on the road we will need as new and fairer tax structure. Right now EV owners are benefitting from this, but trust me, it is only temporary.

Lots of people can't afford EV's. They buy older used vehicles that they can afford.

.
"As of November 2021, the average price of an electric car hovered around $56,000, up nearly 6.2% from the year before, according to data from Kelley Blue Book"

What Are the Costs of Owning an Electric Car?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lots of people can't afford EV's. They buy older used vehicles that they can afford.

.
"As of November 2021, the average price of an electric car hovered around $56,000, up nearly 6.2% from the year before, according to data from Kelley Blue Book"

What Are the Costs of Owning an Electric Car?

I know. New technology is always more expensive. Are you old enough to remember the price of the first calculators? I could buy a decent laptop for the inflation adjusted price of my brother's first calculator that could only add and subtract and had a memory. Their price will come down, or another possibility is of people no longer owning cars once they are self driving. One would simply hire one as needed. That might cost quite a bit less than new cars cost today. Owning a car is not cheap.

In some ways we should have self driving cars now. There is one city in Arizona that has them. They are far safer than human driven cars. Yes, they are not perfect, but it is rather foolish to avoid a technology that would have a tenth of the lives lost that the current technology has.

 

[We Never Know]

I know. New technology is always more expensive. Are you old enough to remember the price of the first calculators? I could buy a decent laptop for the inflation adjusted price of my brother's first calculator that could only add and subtract and had a memory. Their price will come down, or another possibility is of people no longer owning cars once they are self driving. One would simply hire one as needed. That might cost quite a bit less than new cars cost today. Owning a car is not cheap.

In some ways we should have self driving cars now. There is one city in Arizona that has them. They are far safer than human driven cars. Yes, they are not perfect, but it is rather foolish to avoid a technology that would have a tenth of the lives lost that the current technology has.

Its not really new technology, more of a forgotten, overlooked technology

"Around 1832, Robert Anderson develops the first crude electric vehicle, but it isn't until the 1870s or later that electric cars become practical. Pictured here is an electric vehicle built by an English inventor in 1884. Photo courtesy of the Smithsonian."

The History of the Electric Car

 

[Truth in love]

You are always free to demand evidence from others. Sometimes people assume that everyone knows what they know. But if one makes a claim one should be willing to support it.

It’s often not worth the time. I just find the rules for thee and not for me at Tudor to be unhelpful

 

[Truth in love]

And sorry, but that is the sort of nonsense that needs to be properly supported. By the way I am in no hurry to knock down damns for the salmon. The problems that salmon face may be far more complex than those of a few dams and if we did what would be the cost of increased demands on fossil fuels?

Just because a topic is complex does not make it nonsense.

I agree, but the all to often “we must act now” rules the day. And the science keeps getting skipped.

“We need renewable resources.” “Great let’s log more.” “No logging is bad”

“We need to increase energy”. “Great here is a very effective refrigerant”. “No that will kill the ozone layer.

“.Hey the ozone layer is coming back.”
“Cool”
“Yeah ozone is a pollutant that needs to be regulated.”

we had a bio file system back i the early 2000’s it was about $120 a gallon and carbon negative. Gone.

we have plans for severa different types of alternative energy vehicles. The feds take over GM and food and now there only one option.

I could keep going, but the short version is that if the environment matter and what was being preached at is was true we would not have all the people telling me my car will cause the seas to rise living on the coast flying their private jets. It’s a largely a scam much like the military industrial complex.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree, but the all to often “we must act now” rules the day. And the science keeps getting skipped.

“We need renewable resources.” “Great let’s log more.” “No logging is bad”

“We need to increase energy”. “Great here is a very effective refrigerant”. “No that will kill the ozone layer.

“.Hey the ozone layer is coming back.”
“Cool”
“Yeah ozone is a pollutant that needs to be regulated.”

we had a bio file system back i the early 2000’s it was about $120 a gallon and carbon negative. Gone.

we have plans for severa different types of alternative energy vehicles. The feds take over GM and food and now there only one option.

I could keep going, but the short version is that if the environment matter and what was being preached at is was true we would not have all the people telling me my car will cause the seas to rise living on the coast flying their private jets. It’s a largely a scam much like the military industrial complex.

You appear to be rather confused.

 

[danieldemol]

Lol I don’t know if you really try to be utterly ignorant of everything, but you are making a try.

Self contradictory ad-hominem isn't really helpful

lithium batteries have a short life span.

Short compared to what? A lithium battery pack in a tesla contains approximately 10kg of lithium, lasts a minimum ten years and the current tech is recyclable. How long do you think 10kg (19.6 Litres) of petrol will last you and can it be recycled?

Do you actually think only oil gets moved on a semi???

No. See my comments in post#26 for an explanation of why what gets moved on a semi is only relevant to the heaviest class of road vehicles and that too only pending further research.

In my opinion.

ETA: weight of lithium in a Tesla reference;
Why Lithium Could Be a New Risk for Tesla and Other Electric-Vehicle Makers

Lifes span of a Tesla battery;
How Long do Tesla Batteries Last? - Optiwatt.

 

[Revoltingest]

weight per sq inch of tire space would likely be the best measure of this.

Toyota Avalon Weight
How Much Does a Tesla Weigh? (Model S, 3, X & Y)


a newer Tesla can weigh over 5,000 lbs
Avalon’s are just over 3000, so not quite double but in a different class. That weight per inch of tire space looks to be less than a semi truck (found website where it looks like 3000lbs per tire is a typical limit. ) not sure the exact tire sizes. But more weight means tire and road wear out faster

I've not found any research on weight vs tire wear.
Tire wear is a significant pollutant, but this must be
weighed against the relative environmental damage
done from fossil fuel vs electricity generation.
Bio-fuels would add a new wrinkle to this comparison.

I'd like a hybrid...smaller engine...smaller battery....
fuel convenience....regenerative braking...short trips
not putting the engine thru the warm-up phase, which
has the worst economy & pollution....battery assist
for acceleration.

 

[danieldemol]

you know it cracks me up that you think even the most basic common fact requires evidence form others but you keep spotting unsupported claims. Can you not follow the rules you want to have others follow?

Sure I can, be specific about what you disbelieve and I'll provide the evidence.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

You appear to be rather confused.

Not to mention that he appears to be gish galloping irrelevant matter to the discussion of the OP.

In my opinion.