CNN documentary

[Kirran]

One needs be careful when discussing the caste system without consideration of how it arose and its benefits: The varna system of social organisation of the Hindus.

But in practice it's about jatis, not varnas.

 

[Shantanu]

But in practice it's about jatis, not varnas.

Jatis are human groups that form as a natural consequence of socialisation and that is central to evolution.

 

[Kirran]

Jatis are human groups that form as a natural consequence of socialisation and that is central to evolution.

So how come there aren't anything like such fixed jatis in many other areas of the world?

 

[Shantanu]

Up until recently, the tiny island of the United Kingdom had Geordies, Brummies, Cockneys, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, that were formed from the same process of socialisation as part of evolution. In other parts of the world the same happened but got supplanted by religious divisions mainly Islam and Christianity. In India the jatis were supplanted in the same way with the verna system of Vedic religion.

 

[Kirran]

Finishing the episode now - I've been to some of the places in the video!

 

[Kirran]

Up until recently, the tiny island of the United Kingdom had Geordies, Brummies, Cockneys, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, that were formed from the same process of socialisation as part of evolution. In other parts of the world the same happened but got supplanted by religious divisions mainly Islam and Christianity. In India the jatis were supplanted in the same way with the verna system of Vedic religion.

Those don't function like jatis though.

 

[Shantanu]

Those don't function like jatis though.

They were social groupings to encourage inbreeding in the process of racemisation through segregation. Each evolutionary pathway had its own peculiarities to meeting this end. That was just the natural process of survival of the species that has continued to this day in the jati system of India beause these jatis were largely untouched by the Vedic religion of the majority.

As I said around 40,000 years ago this natural human evolutionary process began to be supplanted by religious speciation because God intervened in the affairs of humans from this time.

 

[Kirran]

They were social groupings to encourage inbreeding in the process of racemisation through segregation. Each evolutionary pathway had its own peculiarities to meeting this end. That was just the natural process of survival of the species that has continued to this day in the jati system of India beause these jatis were largely untouched by the Vedic religion of the majority.

As I said around 40,000 years ago this natural human evolutionary process began to be supplanted by religious speciation because God intervened in the affairs of humans from this time.

Oh I'm sure one can find ways to explain the emergence of the caste system and caste discrimination, as still plagues India, but that doesn't mean one can justify it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh I'm sure one can find ways to explain the emergence of the caste system and caste discrimination, as still plagues India, but that doesn't mean one can justify it.

Hard to justify economic class disparity too. You think those castles of Europe got there without exploitation?

 

[Kirran]

Hard to justify economic class disparity too. You think those castles of Europe got there without exploitation?

Preaching to the choir V-dada.

 

[Vinayaka]

Preaching to the choir V-dada.

Yeah, I know. Still I wonder how regional caste based discrimination is in India, and just how 'severe' it is. I certainly don't have a handle on it, and rarely noticed it when I was there. Either it wasn't there that much, or I just have incredibly poor observation skills. Most certainly I wasn't looking for it, as on pilgrimage, you're focused on getting darshan at the next temple.

I certainly see it a ton here, not much in the Hindu community, but in society, but then I have time to look for it and study it too.

 

[Kirran]

Yeah, I know. Still I wonder how regional caste based discrimination is in India, and just how 'severe' it is. I certainly don't have a handle on it, and rarely noticed it when I was there. Either it wasn't there that much, or I just have incredibly poor observation skills. Most certainly I wasn't looking for it, as on pilgrimage, you're focused on getting darshan at the next temple.

I certainly see it a ton here, not much in the Hindu community, but in society, but then I have time to look for it and study it too.

It varies a lot. In a lot of UP, it's still rough. Kerala as well is pretty bad. Mumbai is much better. Don't know details of other places, but these are structural problems impacting most of India it appears. Lots of people are kind of nominally against it but would still marry in-caste, would still not wanna hang out with people from 'that background' and so on, would still hire someone from a higher caste, all this kind of thing.

The hereditary Brahmin thing is odd too - I believe your guru once said something like 'So if your the child of a doctor, am I going to let you operate on me?'

But in Varanasi I went to temples where Brahmin kids and stuff were in charge, and ones where it was all Dalit people attending and the puja being done by some sadhu/sadhvi.

 

[Shantanu]

Oh I'm sure one can find ways to explain the emergence of the caste system and caste discrimination, as still plagues India, but that doesn't mean one can justify it.

Has it not occurred to you that the jatis in question are trying to preserve their particular cultures?

 

[Kirran]

Has it not occurred to you that the jatis in question are trying to preserve their particular cultures?

The culture of people whose hereditary job it is to burn dead bodies on the ghats of Varanasi?

What if some Dom Raja kid wants to be a computer engineer, or a painter?

For that matter, what if a non-Brahmin wants to be a priest?

 

[Vinayaka]

It varies a lot. In a lot of UP, it's still rough. Kerala as well is pretty bad. Mumbai is much better. Don't know details of other places, but these are structural problems impacting most of India it appears. Lots of people are kind of nominally against it but would still marry in-caste, would still not wanna hang out with people from 'that background' and so on, would still hire someone from a higher caste, all this kind of thing.

Where do you get this information? Whenever I try to read up on it, I'll read 3 or 4 papers, and they'll give 3 or 4 interpretations, and I'll go 'Alas, I'll never know."

In Canada it's easier. The first nations peoples are the poorest class, by far. Yes there are exceptions. I'm sure in Britain it's easier to see too. You tell be housing, dress, estates, cars, and the like.

 

[Kirran]

Where do you get this information? Whenever I try to read up on it, I'll read 3 or 4 papers, and they'll give 3 or 4 interpretations, and I'll go 'Alas, I'll never know."

In Canada it's easier. The first nations peoples are the poorest class, by far. Yes there are exceptions. I'm sure in Britain it's easier to see too. You tell be housing, dress, estates, cars, and the like.

Talking to people, reading reports on it etc - I don't go out to research it. Being in Varanasi gave some insights.

That makes sense. In the UK there's a lot of classism, but we call them 'chavs' not 'working class' so it's OK (y)

 

[Vinayaka]

Talking to people, reading reports on it etc - I don't go out to research it. Being in Varanasi gave some insights.

That makes sense. In the UK there's a lot of classism, but we call them 'chavs' not 'working class' so it's OK (y)

I read between the lines on everything. 'What is the lens of the writer? What is his agenda?"
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. A proud Indian will most likely play it down, whereas an anti-Hindu anti-Indian western racist bigot will undoubtedly play it up.

 

[Shantanu]

The culture of people whose hereditary job it is to burn dead bodies on the ghats of Varanasi?

What if some Dom Raja kid wants to be a computer engineer, or a painter?

For that matter, what if a non-Brahmin wants to be a priest?

If those Dom people did not exist who would do the cremations and what would then be the result be for diseases in society. If they were intelligent enough to become computer engineers or painters rather than burn dead bodies they would find a way to do so.

As far as the verna system of classification goes, it should become flexible to allow people to move between the different vernas.

 

[Kirran]

I read between the lines on everything. 'What is the lens of the writer? What is his agenda?"
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. A proud Indian will most likely play it down, whereas an anti-Hindu anti-Indian western racist bigot will undoubtedly play it up.

Yeah, true - the perspectives I value most (although not solely) on the topic are those of Indians of lower caste backgrounds.

 

[Kirran]

If those Dom people did not exist who would do the cremations and what would then be the result be for diseases in society. If they were intelligent enough to become computer engineers or painters rather than burn dead bodies they would find a way to do so.

As far as the verna system of classification goes, it should become flexible to allow people to move between the different vernas.

Doesn't need to be hereditary, and there doesn't need to be the stigma, is the point.

If they were intelligent enough? Really?