CNN documentary

[Vinayaka]

Yeah, true - the perspectives I value most (although not solely) on the topic are those of Indians of lower caste backgrounds.

That too, is a lens, although I'd be like you. I give the victim far more weight than the perpetrator.

 

[Vinayaka]

If those Dom people did not exist who would do the cremations and what would then be the result be for diseases in society. If they were intelligent enough to become computer engineers or painters rather than burn dead bodies they would find a way to do so.

As far as the verna system of classification goes, it should become flexible to allow people to move between the different vernas.

The cremation ground guys should be the highest paid professionals in the whole of India.

 

[Kirran]

The cremation ground guys should be the highest paid professionals in the whole of India.

Instead most people wouldn't give them the time of day, and don't give them much of an option to do anything else with their lives if they wanted to. So unless they try and get money off tourists and stuff, which money do, they don't have a lot of options. There are other castes which are similar r.e. fishing and so on (although now the fish are mostly dying due to pollution in Ganga).

 

[Shantanu]

Doesn't need to be hereditary, and there doesn't need to be the stigma, is the point.

If they were intelligent enough? Really?

It has to be hereditary to preserve the Vedic system. That is a must. But it should become flexible enough for people to suddenly change their vernas if they show particular aptitudes.

 

[Vinayaka]

Instead most people wouldn't give them the time of day, and don't give them much of an option to do anything else with their lives if they wanted to. So unless they try and get money off tourists and stuff, which money do, they don't have a lot of options. There are other castes which are similar r.e. fishing and so on (although now the fish are mostly dying due to pollution in Ganga).

Yes I know that ... I was just sayin ... There is a 'That's not my job' attitude all over. We have people at our temple who wouldn't vacuum the floor because its a 'low' job. Conditioning.

 

[Kirran]

It has to be hereditary to preserve the Vedic system. That is a must. But it should become flexible enough for people to suddenly change their vernas if they show particular aptitudes.

Well, we must agree to disagree here.

Yes I know that ... I was just sayin ... There is a 'That's not my job' attitude all over. We have people at our temple who wouldn't vacuum the floor because its a 'low' job. Conditioning.

I know, don't worry!

That's a great point. You know, when we as Westerners (or for that matter Mumbaikars and so on) hear about like some guru who's there working in the gardens, washing the dishes, cleaning the toilets and so on in his ashram we're like impressed, but I think we miss some of the magnitude of that humility, because we don't understand the kind of mentality the society commonly operates in regarding "dirty" jobs.

I do always have to shower before going to puja if I've been cleaning toilets or mucking out the animals though. The latter happens a lot.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, we must agree to disagree here.



I know, don't worry!

That's a great point. You know, when we as Westerners (or for that matter Mumbaikars and so on) hear about like some guru who's there working in the gardens, washing the dishes, cleaning the toilets and so on in his ashram we're like impressed, but I think we miss some of the magnitude of that humility, because we don't understand the kind of mentality the society commonly operates in regarding "dirty" jobs.

I do always have to shower before going to puja if I've been cleaning toilets or mucking out the animals though. The latter happens a lot.

I have a shower before puja no matter what. India, on pilgrimage was harder. But even my 'dirty work' in landscaping is frowned down at by some. They think I'm a hired hand and always get embarrassed if they find out I'm a devotee volunteer.

 

[Kirran]

I have a shower before puja no matter what. India, on pilgrimage was harder.

I will first thing in the morning, but if I'm going to like 4+ pujas a day I won't always. Especially when it's like 6pm puja, dinner, 9pm puja, I won't shower twice.

But even my 'dirty work' in landscaping is frowned down at by some. They think I'm a hired hand and always get embarrassed if they find out I'm a devotee volunteer.

I suppose they'll get accustomed over time if they see people doing it a lot.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but that doesn't mean one can justify it.

Oppression is wrong but what is wrong if Scots want to marry Scots and Italians want to marry Italians? Or Jats want to marry Jats and Yadavas want to marry Yadavas? They are saving their particular culture. Why must it be a risotto (khichadi)?

The culture of people whose hereditary job it is to burn dead bodies on the ghats of Varanasi?

What if some Dom Raja kid wants to be a computer engineer, or a painter? For that matter, what if a non-Brahmin wants to be a priest?

There is a lot of economics involved here. Dom Rajas earn well. No body stops a son of a Dom Raja to pursue engineering or any other profession or position. He could be the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court or even the Prime Minister. In many states, non-brahmins are priests (particularly in Kerala).

 

[icehorse]

Once again, let me toss the Universal Declaration on Human Rights into the mix:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations

I continue to feel that this document describes a minimal baseline for how EVERYONE ought to be treated. I wonder whether the various groups you're discussing have practices that support the UDHR, or whether their practices are in opposition to it?

 

[Shantanu]

Once again, let me toss the Universal Declaration on Human Rights into the mix:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations

I continue to feel that this document describes a minimal baseline for how EVERYONE ought to be treated. I wonder whether the various groups you're discussing have practices that support the UDHR, or whether their practices are in opposition to it?

Not so. There is no universal human rights as a concept in Hinduism. We believe that human beings are all different and should be treated differently according to what they deserve from their behavior/actions.

 

[Vinayaka]

Once again, let me toss the Universal Declaration on Human Rights into the mix:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations

I continue to feel that this document describes a minimal baseline for how EVERYONE ought to be treated. I wonder whether the various groups you're discussing have practices that support the UDHR, or whether their practices are in opposition to it?

I think everyone has that sort of thing as a goal, but it may not be expressed in the same words. In Hinduism we have the concept of dharma, which is right conduct. Right conduct involves ahimsa, and ethical treatment of others.

The other factor here is karma. Hindus believe in karma, where any action performed by you is returned to you in equal force. So if a Hindu actually believes in karma, he wouldn't mistreat anyone based on gender, age, race, caste, or any other factor. So UDHR is sort of built in.

 

[icehorse]

Not so. There is no universal human rights as a concept in Hinduism. We believe that human beings are all different and should be treated differently according to what they deserve from their behavior/actions.

Let me rephrase my question: Would supporting the UDHR be in conflict with Hinduism?

 

[Kirran]

Let me rephrase my question: Would supporting the UDHR be in conflict with Hinduism?

Only some people's.

 

[icehorse]

Only some people's.

Hi Kirran, Here we're back in the DIR (this multiple thread thing is tricky), can you clarify? Are you saying that for some Hindus, aspects of the UDHR would be in conflict with their faith?

thanks!

 

[Kirran]

Hi Kirran, Here we're back in the DIR (this multiple thread thing is tricky), can you clarify? Are you saying that for some Hindus, aspects of the UDHR would be in conflict with their faith?

thanks!

Oh dear! I had missed it.

Like yeah, some Hindus will say, elements of the UDHR are't compatible with Hinduism, sure, but people have all sorts of different takes on what Hinduism is and entails. For me personally, the UDHR is very basic, 101, stuff. So I support it of course, but think we need to go a lot further. But at the end of the day, it's very simple - I believe we need to express love unconditionally and universally.

 

[Shantanu]

Let me rephrase my question: Would supporting the UDHR be in conflict with Hinduism?

In my Hinduism, I go by satya-advaita, that is to seek the truth and raise the truth. That is a philosophy that can become a religion consistent with the Indian nation's slogan Satymeva Jayate. Through the satya-advaitic path of living we do not ascribe things like universal human rights but follow a routine in which truth is sought and accommodated in ones daily life. I believe that human beings and animals have equal rights so to speak and if we can eat animal products when we need to humans can also be eaten as Aghori babas do. But Hindus practice non violence of ahimsa towards all beings whether they are plants, animals or humans. Nature is treated as one whole. Human beings are nothing special. So we do not say that humans have any greater right to life for instance than animals or plants do. In satya-advaita we see each moment what is required for our survival with dignity. If this means detecting and squashing evil that we find in humanity, we devote our life to that as a good way to live. This is when satya-advaita has become a religion it means that one has encountered God to whom one has surrendered. Through such surrender we get to know of God's wishes for what would be a good way to live.

Have I made myself understood?

 

[icehorse]

Have I made myself understood?

mostly yes, and thanks. However, in my mind you raised a lot of new interesting questions, and I'm not quite sure how to navigate in the DIR forums, so I might need to take some of your answers to a different RF forum.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Once again, let me toss the Universal Declaration on Human Rights into the mix:

Google Search: "India is a signatory to the six core human rights covenants, and also the two Optional Protocols to the Convention of the Rights of the Child."
I do not know and doubt that India is a full signatory to the above document. FYI.

You see, we are very sensitive about our sovereignty. We have been under foreign rule for a long time. Now, we would not allow any nation (or organization like UN) to dictate things to us. We sign what is agreeable to us and will honestly stick to it. If we have differences then the world has to accept Indian view for India.

Let me rephrase my question: Would supporting the UDHR be in conflict with Hinduism?

NO.
Hinduism itself is the best UDHR. Where UDHR differs from Hinduim, UDHR has ulterior (Western Christian) motives. They can't fool us, we too have brains.

 

[Kirran]

India was one of the earliest supporters of the UDHR, but that's a matter of Indian politics, not Hinduism. There's no reason to think the actions of the Indian state are expressive of Hindu values.