College Orders Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed

[Magic Man]

I think a counselor should have a right to refuse treatment for any reason

Then I'm thankful you're not in charge of such things.

but similarly I think an employer should have a right to fire that counselor for not doing their job.

Of course they should.

Personal bias would be a good reason for rejecting a client or personal involvement would be another one.

Personal bias is not a good reason for rejecting a client. Personal involvement, sure, but I guess I figured that was obvious.

She's expressing personal viewpoints in contradiction to the standards. But I didn't see anything about her violating the standards in practice. To me this seems to be more of an extrapolation of her potential behavior in the real world.

I'm sure it does seem that way to you.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Next time you can push me in, grab my head and hold me under water.

Don't tempt me.

 

[brbubba]

I'm sure it does seem that way to you.

That's really the whole point isn't it? Are we judging her on an actual violation or the potential for violation?

 

[Magic Man]

The girl is passing her classes, so I don't see how she could be expressing these opinions during assignments and passing.

This isn't equivalent to math or engineering. There's more to this type of degree than just learning numbers and facts. My wife is working towards her social work degree, and I brought this specific question up to her, whether or not this was comparable to getting a degree in another field like math or science. It's not the same because of the work you're doing. They're not just judging you based on your academics and ability on tests. They're judging you on your grasp of the material and your ability to follow the rules and principles set by the ACA.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's really the whole point isn't it? Are we judging her on an actual violation or the potential for violation?

It's somewhere in between. We're judging her on her stated intent to act in a way that would violate the ACA guidelines in future, which itself is an actual violation of the guidelines now.

 

[Magic Man]

That's really the whole point isn't it? Are we judging her on an actual violation or the potential for violation?

Both.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This isn't equivalent to math or engineering. There's more to this type of degree than just learning numbers and facts. My wife is working towards her social work degree, and I brought this specific question up to her, whether or not this was comparable to getting a degree in another field like math or science. It's not the same because of the work you're doing. They're not just judging you based on your academics and ability on tests. They're judging you on your grasp of the material and your ability to follow the rules and principles set by the ACA.

That being said, I'm sure that if a geological engineering student went to his professor and said "just between you and me, I don't believe any of the stuff you've been teaching about soil formation; I'm only regurgitating what you say until I can graduate and get out into practice, where I'll base my tunneling designs on my belief in a 6000-year-old Earth", things wouldn't just end there.

 

[brbubba]

I'm questioning whether she actively violated the guidelines. Just expressing a viewpoint isn't an active violation. Based on the information we have I can only assume that she is being judged on potential future abuses.

BTW, what did the wife say?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That's really the whole point isn't it? Are we judging her on an actual violation or the potential for violation?

You know, if one of my dance students wanted to become a teacher, and if her idea of "proper pedagogy" was already documented to create chronic pain and bad alignment, I would do my absolute best to discourage her from teaching. Doesn't matter if she believes her methodology is legitimate or not. If it's been shown to do harm to students, I would be doing the wrong thing by endorsing her as a teacher.

 

[brbubba]

That being said, I'm sure that if a geological engineering student went to his professor and said "just between you and me, I don't believe any of the stuff you've been teaching about soil formation; I'm only regurgitating what you say until I can graduate and get out into practice, where I'll base my tunneling designs on my belief in a 6000-year-old Earth", things wouldn't just end there.

I would say the kid was an idiot, but if he can regurgitate the material I would still pass him. The degree simply says that I've taught the kid the material and he has been able to acceptably understand it and put it into practice. How he chooses to put that into real world practice is up to him. If he screws up then he's liable, not the university.

You know, if one of my dance students wanted to become a teacher, and if her idea of "proper pedagogy" was already documented to create chronic pain and bad alignment, I would do my absolute best to discourage her from teaching. Doesn't matter if she believes her methodology is legitimate or not. If it's been shown to do harm to students, I would be doing the wrong thing by endorsing her as a teacher.

See above. A degree is not an endorsement.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm questioning whether she actively violated the guidelines. Just expressing a viewpoint isn't an active violation. Based on the information we have I can only assume that she is being judged on potential future abuses.

As has been said, she's being judged on both. She's not following the guidelines right now, and she is showing that she won't in the future. Either one would be enough, though.

BTW, what did the wife say?

She said basically what I said. She said that helping professions are a different animal than other fields. Becoming a teacher or social worker or counselor involves more than just answering test questions correctly. It involves demonstrating your ability to positively interact with other people, since that is the primary goal of your profession. So, good test grades aren't the be-all-end-all of grading or graduating helping-profession students.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would say the kid was an idiot, but if he can regurgitate the material I would still pass him.

Then, as an engineer (and at least here, virtually all engineering professors are engineers themselves), you would be acting unethically:

Through the Code of Ethics, professional engineers have a clearly defined duty to society, which is to regard the duty to public welfare as paramount, above their duties to clients or employers.

The degree simply says that I've taught the kid the material and he has been able to acceptably understand it and put it into practice. How he chooses to put that into real world practice is up to him. If he screws up then he's liable, not the university.




See above. A degree is not an endorsement.

That's not quite true. At least in the case of my university and faculty, the decision to promote or graduate a student isn't just a matter of acheiving a grade of X on each course; it's based on the student acheiving satisfactory performance in the eyes of the faculty over each term. If a student behaves himself or herself, then normally the issue does come down to a matter of course credits, but this doesn't mean that things other than grades don't matter.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I would say the kid was an idiot, but if he can regurgitate the material I would still pass him. The degree simply says that I've taught the kid the material and he has been able to acceptably understand it and put it into practice. How he chooses to put that into real world practice is up to him. If he screws up then he's liable, not the university.




See above. A degree is not an endorsement.

Please. A degree is much more than passing a simple exam.

 

[Autodidact]

See above. A degree is not an endorsement.

Actually, that's exactly and all it is.

 

[brbubba]

Actually, that's exactly and all it is.

Depends on what definition you are using. If you are looking at an approval then yes. I was going by this definition, which is more common IMO.

to approve openly <endorse an idea>; especially : to express support or approval of publicly and definitely <endorse a mayoral candidate> b : to recommend (as a product or service) usually for financial compensation <shoes endorsed by a pro basketball player>

In which case, approval versus public support or recommendation are two different things.

As has been said, she's being judged on both. She's not following the guidelines right now, and she is showing that she won't in the future. Either one would be enough, though.

She said basically what I said. She said that helping professions are a different animal than other fields. Becoming a teacher or social worker or counselor involves more than just answering test questions correctly. It involves demonstrating your ability to positively interact with other people, since that is the primary goal of your profession. So, good test grades aren't the be-all-end-all of grading or graduating helping-profession students.

If you can't quantify then how can you objectively judge it? This seems to be what everyone is saying, but at the heart of that is a subjective judgement.

So important factors here, is it documented first and foremost. Are all the remediation requirements based on prior documentation? If they can show that the course of action is based upon objective documentation then they are ok. Also whether or not this documentation was "available" to the student is equally important.

Second is whether she can show that she was satisfying the existing requirements within a reasonable definition. Sure they might be vague, but would be unreasonable to assume that you have to think a certain way to receive a diploma.

If the university can't show that the decision was solely subjective or that the student can show that she was within the guidelines, then I think she has a case.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Depends on what definition you are using. If you are looking at an approval then yes. I was going by this definition, which is more common IMO.

to approve openly <endorse an idea>; especially : to express support or approval of publicly and definitely <endorse a mayoral candidate> b : to recommend (as a product or service) usually for financial compensation <shoes endorsed by a pro basketball player>

In which case, approval versus public support or recommendation are two different things.

My diploma explicitly says my degree was granted on the recommendation of the senate of the university. I believe this is fairly standard.

 

[brbubba]

My diploma explicitly says my degree was granted on the recommendation of the senate of the university. I believe this is fairly standard.

One of mine says something similar, but don't confuse a recommendation of a candidate versus a recommendation that a candidate has satisfied the requirements.

If you called up any university I seriously doubt they would say that a degree would mean that they recommend you publicly for any position. And that's likely a result of a lawsuit. If a degree actually meant a public recommendation of a candidate then anyone could turn around and sue the university for granting the degree when that candidate screwed up. You just killed my patient, well then I'm suing the university for saying that you were competent not to kill my patient.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste: Can I call 'em or what?

Wow - you sure can.

 

[Alceste]

Found them and I'd have to say they are fairly vague. I don't see specifically how the plaintiff has shown herself to be in violation of the guidelines.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107047-post85.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107061-post86.html

"The assessment and treatment of lesbian, gay, and bisexual clients can be adversely affected by therapists’ explicit or implicit negative attitudes."

"According to the Ethics Code, psychologists "are aware of culture, individual, and role differences, including those due to … sexual orientation … and try to eliminate the effect on their work of biases based on [such] factors". Hence, psychologists are encouraged to use appropriate methods of self-exploration and self-education (e.g., consultation, study, and formal continuing education) to identify and ameliorate preconceived biases about homosexuality and bisexuality. "

Can you please clarify which bit of this you find "ambiguous"? She was instructed to undertake a method of self-exploration and self-education to become a competent therapist and refused to do so, therefore she violated the Ethics Code and failed the course as a result.

Worth noting that she wasn't instructed to "change her beliefs", but to undertake additional training with respect to her explicit heterosexist bias, which can adversely effect the treatment of homosexuals.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One of mine says something similar, but don't confuse a recommendation of a candidate versus a recommendation that a candidate has satisfied the requirements.

If you called up any university I seriously doubt they would say that a degree would mean that they recommend you publicly for any position.

No, they wouldn't. That's not the sort of recommendation a degree is. However, this doesn't mean that a degree isn't a recommendation at all.

A degree is an endorsement that the student has acheived a certain level of competence in his or her field of study. There is much more to competence than just passing exams and assignments.

And that's likely a result of a lawsuit. If a degree actually meant a public recommendation of a candidate then anyone could turn around and sue the university for granting the degree when that candidate screwed up. You just killed my patient, well then I'm suing the university for saying that you were competent not to kill my patient.

Again, it's not that kind of recommendation. But it's still a recommendation.