College Orders Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed

[brbubba]

The one link that showed the case file stated that she has been very vocal in and out of class about her opinions about homosexuality and transsexualism, and that she believes that the reprogramming therapy, which is NOT endorsed or condoned by the APA (they actually have spoken out against it due to inconclusive evidence to show they work), is the proper way to treat them. The last thing a high school student needs is a councilor to tell that he/she is just needs to be cured, it's a phase, and that it's a "choice." Those lines have tragically caused many people in the GLBT community to commit suicide.
It's also not all entirely about understanding the curriculum. It's also about showing your are competent enough that when you are awarded a degree, the school is saying they have confidence in you to be a good ambassador of sorts.

I can agree with the initial assertion. If she is outright saying that she will recommend something that could be unethical to the APA then I would agree. But I would say let the APA decide that, not the school. Let the APA revoke her license. To me this would be similar to a Doctor performing a procedure that was not approved by whatever the governing body is. Let the governing body decide whether it was unsafe, unethical, etc.

The second point I can't concede to. You pay the school for an education, the school doesn't get to dictate a good ambassador seal of approval after the fact. If that's the case then refund her all tuition plus expenses plus time spent.

Yes, the woman is a nut job, but I'm questioning whether it is the schools place to dictate that as opposed to the APA or her employer or some other oversight agency.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can agree with the initial assertion. If she is outright saying that she will recommend something that could be unethical to the APA then I would agree. But I would say let the APA decide that, not the school. Let the APA revoke her license.

The APA can't revoke a license that I am aware of. I am willing to bet they can't, since there are many clinics that offer "therapy" that the APA has strongly urged therapist to not resort to. And if you look at NARTH, it is full of psychologist and psychiatrist who are very anti-gay. As far as I know, there isn't any ruling body for psychology. The APA doesn't have anything to do with employment, published articles, research, or anything else, and I am assuming the ACA doesn't either. The American Psychological Association is regarded as a very high authority, as the Diagnostics and Statistical Manuel of Mental Disorders (DSM) is written and published under their guidance, but they don't actually govern psychologist and psychiatrist.

The second point I can't concede to. You pay the school for an education, the school doesn't get to dictate a good ambassador seal of approval after the fact. If that's the case then refund her all tuition plus expenses plus time spent.

You pay for the education, true, but at the same time the school has their own reputation to uphold. The girl should have done her research to know that her college of choice does not share her opinion of gay and transsexual individuals. It's not that hard to set up an appointment with a dean, councilor, or program adviser to ask such questions. It's even easier to just simply write an email and ask.

 

[Smoke]

I can agree with the initial assertion. If she is outright saying that she will recommend something that could be unethical to the APA then I would agree. But I would say let the APA decide that, not the school. Let the APA revoke her license. To me this would be similar to a Doctor performing a procedure that was not approved by whatever the governing body is. Let the governing body decide whether it was unsafe, unethical, etc.

That's mind-boggling. It would be grossly unethical for the school to graduate this woman and award her a degree, knowing full well that she is incompetent and intends to practice unethically. Turn her loose on unsuspecting clients, and then let some governing body discipline her after she's screwed with their minds?
Seriously?

The second point I can't concede to. You pay the school for an education, the school doesn't get to dictate a good ambassador seal of approval after the fact. If that's the case then refund her all tuition plus expenses plus time spent.

Yeah, just like how if you enroll in university and they kick you out because you stay drunk all the time and never go to class, they should give you a full refund. You pay for an education, and it's the school's job to give it to you, not your job to earn it.

You pay for the opportunity to attend classes. What you do with that opportunity is up to you. A school doesn't sell degrees -- at least, not a legitimate school.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It would be grossly unethical for the school to graduate this woman and award her a degree, knowing full well that she is incompetent and intends to practice unethically. Turn her loose on unsuspecting clients...

And really at the heart of the debate are the high school students that are going to be approaching her for comfort, guidance, and knowledge and how to deal with being gay. Being a teenager is already an emotional and hormonal roller coaster between feeling unstoppable, thinking everyone is watching and judging you, and to feeling like not a soul in the world cares or understands you. And she wants to tell homosexual teenagers that they are going through a phase, that they can be cured, they aren't acting natural, and they are wrong is not something to tell a teenager who might already be depressed to the point of suicide because his/her family, friends, and gods know how many other people have already told them that. You just simply cannot do that. If anything, she probably didn't pay much attention during any lectures about how fragile and vulnerable a teenaged mind can be.

 

[Alceste]

And really at the heart of the debate are the high school students that are going to be approaching her for comfort, guidance, and knowledge and how to deal with being gay. Being a teenager is already an emotional and hormonal roller coaster between feeling unstoppable, thinking everyone is watching and judging you, and to feeling like not a soul in the world cares or understands you. And she wants to tell homosexual teenagers that they are going through a phase, that they can be cured, they aren't acting natural, and they are wrong is not something to tell a teenager who might already be depressed to the point of suicide because his/her family, friends, and gods know how many other people have already told them that. You just simply cannot do that. If anything, she probably didn't pay much attention during any lectures about how fragile and vulnerable a teenaged mind can be.

Seems to me she has decided her personal bias is more important than the (empirically demonstrable) wellbeing of her potential clients. That's what makes her unfit for the job. Plenty of Christians have no trouble providing professional medical treatment despite their philosophical leanings. So, this is not a religious issue, unless ignorance and hubris has become a religion in the US.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I've been reading the court briefing.

http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf

In a letter to the university the student states:

I know there is often a difference between personal beliefs and how a counseling
situation should be handled. But in order to finish the counseling program you
are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I
ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion
or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my
biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a
counseling situation.

Ok for one her beliefs are in no way objective. Her believing this indicates an inability to accept any beliefs that differ from hers.

She also states that she will not be able to affirm the behaviours of GLBT people. As a counsellor one must be able to accept a person with no judgements. She clearly does not have the ability to accept a GLBT person without judgements.

But that is just another way of saying that I must alter my beliefs, because my beliefs are about absolute truth.

Once again showing her inability to understand that other peoples beliefs on the subject are just as valid as hers.

I have not chosen to withdraw from the program. I really want to complete it. It’s
just that I know that I can’t in good conscience go forward with the second part of
the remediation plan after what you and Dr. Schenck told me at last Thursday’s
meeting about needing to alter my beliefs about whether other people’s sexual
decisions and transgender identities are okay. I can’t do that. I believe the Bible’s
teaching applies to all people on who they are and how they should act, not just to
me. From that, I see that some behaviors are not moral or positive.

Once again.

 

[blackout]

what kinds of degrees to 'christian councelors' normally have?

Just wondering.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

She does however state:

I have thought all along that I am truly able to affirm the dignity of all my clients and give respect to them without agreeing that their sexual behaviors are right or healthy.

But it’s because of my biblical beliefs that I do respect and care for all people and want to serve as a counselor. I think I can do that in a professional and ethical way without having to alter my beliefs on the GLBTQ issues.

I have to say that she cannot promise that her biases will not interfere with her counselling practise. Psychologists must go through years of therapy themselves to work out any issues before being accredited so as they don't project their biases onto the client. This mere student would not have the ability nor the self awareness to make this promise

 

[The Neo Nerd]

what kinds of degrees to 'christian councelors' normally have?

Just wondering.

Christian counseling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christian counseling is counseling which draws upon psychology and Christian teaching. Efforts to combine counseling with Christian or other religious perspectives or approaches are sometimes called "integration."[1] For example, scientific evidence indicates that rational cognitive therapy which is based on underlying Christian principles is an effective form of cognitive theraphy.[2]

Christian Counseling

Christian counseling is distinct from secular counseling. Christian counseling rises to another dimension. "In contrast to psychologically-integrated systems, Biblical counseling seeks to carefully discover those areas in which a Christian may be disobedient to the principles and commands of Scripture and to help him learn how to lovingly submit to God's will," reports the International Association of Biblical Counselors.

As for the courses well they are available almost everywhere. But they are usually the province of christian universities.


-Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_counseling#cite_note-1

 

[blackout]

So why doesn't this girl just go to a christian university?
And become a christian counselor?



(not like you all know or anything.)

 

[The Neo Nerd]

So why doesn't this girl just go to a christian university?
And become a christian councelor?



(not like you all know or anything.)

I guess that when the girl started her studies she did not realise that her beliefs would be an issue.

This is easily extrapolated from inability to accept that other peoples beliefs are valid also.

But now she's started she resists the thought of moving because she has already invested time and money in the course. There is a part in the court briefing about this:

Upon investigation, Miss Keeton found that tuition is significantly more expensive at other schools with graduate counseling programs in the area. Also, those other schools would not accept all of the class credits she had accrued at ASU, thus would not only require redundant academic work, but her transfer into such an alternate program would postpone the completion of her degree and her entry into the counseling profession—thereby disrupting specific plans she had made.

 

[blackout]

ah.

Well see that? You did know after all.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

It's still no for her not to get expelled from the university.

Ignorance is no defense for her case.

 

[brbubba]

Yeah, just like how if you enroll in university and they kick you out because you stay drunk all the time and never go to class, they should give you a full refund. You pay for an education, and it's the school's job to give it to you, not your job to earn it.

You pay for the opportunity to attend classes. What you do with that opportunity is up to you. A school doesn't sell degrees -- at least, not a legitimate school.

That's quite a bit different. This woman has satisfied the requirements of all of her classes and has been singled out for remediation. An equivalent analogy would be if the school caught you drinking and said, "We think you have a drinking problem, now go to counseling or we won't graduate you." If she has satisfied the requirements of the program then not graduating her would be a form of discrimination.

Assuming that all graduates will conform to the university's ethical, religious, moral or philosophical standards is absurd. The only way I could condone this is if there is a certification process monitored by a third party that the school has to comply with. Something similar to a state exam.

I have to say that she cannot promise that her biases will not interfere with her counselling practise. Psychologists must go through years of therapy themselves to work out any issues before being accredited so as they don't project their biases onto the client. This mere student would not have the ability nor the self awareness to make this promise

You can never promise that. In fact, I find that to be the biggest problem in our justice system today, the idea that humans can maintain a non bias in any situation. It's impossible.

Then again though, does the school have predefined criteria to this effect? If the school has a preexisting written standard then they should be ok, but if this is just a few professors making this decision I predict they will be screwed even if this girl is likely just fishing for a lawsuit.

EDIT:
It seems the main affirmation is the following,

She has stated that she believes sexual behavior is the result of accountable personal choice rather than an inevitability deriving from deterministic forces.

Now just for clarification, has it been determined definitively yet that homosexuality is a birth condition?

 

[Magic Man]

That's quite a bit different. This woman has satisfied the requirements of all of her classes...

No, she hasn't. Part of satisfying her requirements is learning and not actively rejecting the principles of the program.

An equivalent analogy would be if the school caught you drinking and said, "We think you have a drinking problem, now go to counseling or we won't graduate you." If she has satisfied the requirements of the program then not graduating her would be a form of discrimination.

That's not even close to an equivalent analogy. I don't know why it's so hard to see that she is rejecting core principles of the ACA's program. This isn't an unrelated issue like drinking would be. This is at the core of what she's learning to do.

Assuming that all graduates will conform to the university's ethical, religious, moral or philosophical standards is absurd. The only way I could condone this is if there is a certification process monitored by a third party that the school has to comply with. Something similar to a state exam.

Of course she has to conform to the university's ethical and philosophical standards. Everyone has to do that with every university. She doesn't have to conform to religious or moral standards, though, and the university doesn't expect her to. However, did you miss the part where her curriculum is set by the ACA, a third-party that the school has to comply with? That's the whole point of the issue. They set these principles and rules for their counseling programs, and they expect them to be followed by anyone who wants to graduate.

You can never promise that. In fact, I find that to be the biggest problem in our justice system today, the idea that humans can maintain a non bias in any situation. It's impossible.

You most certainly can be expected to not let your bias affect your job. It would be a sad world, if one couldn't be expected to do that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's quite a bit different. This woman has satisfied the requirements of all of her classes and has been singled out for remediation. An equivalent analogy would be if the school caught you drinking and said, "We think you have a drinking problem, now go to counseling or we won't graduate you." If she has satisfied the requirements of the program then not graduating her would be a form of discrimination.

The whole thrust of the university's position is that she hasn't satisfied the requirements for her program.

Assuming that all graduates will conform to the university's ethical, religious, moral or philosophical standards is absurd. The only way I could condone this is if there is a certification process monitored by a third party that the school has to comply with. Something similar to a state exam.

Every licensed profession has standards for ethics and professional competence. The entire purpose of a university program in a professional field is to prepare the student to participate in that field. There's nothing wrong at all with a school insisting that prospective members of a profession meet the standards of that profession.

You can never promise that. In fact, I find that to be the biggest problem in our justice system today, the idea that humans can maintain a non bias in any situation. It's impossible.

So you have a difference of philosophical opinion with the approach of the school; the program requirements still are what they are.

When I was in school for engineering, they taught us limit states design methodology in my structural courses. Even if, in my heart of hearts, I thought that allowable stress design was a better approach, the material of the course still covered limit states design, and I still had to use that approach when doing my assignments.

This student - as well as you, apparently - are asking for a special status for religious beliefs that isn't afforded to other beliefs.

 

[brbubba]

Of course she has to conform to the university's ethical and philosophical standards. Everyone has to do that with every university. She doesn't have to conform to religious or moral standards, though, and the university doesn't expect her to. However, did you miss the part where her curriculum is set by the ACA, a third-party that the school has to comply with? That's the whole point of the issue. They set these principles and rules for their counseling programs, and they expect them to be followed by anyone who wants to graduate.

You most certainly can be expected to not let your bias affect your job. It would be a sad world, if one couldn't be expected to do that.

The ACA sets the curriculum, but she has satisfied the curriculum. The complaint states that this arose from viewpoints made inside and outside class. But if she wasn't satisfying the curriculum she would have flunked out.

And it is 100% impossible to do any job free of bias. You can attempt to be free of bias, but anyone who says they are is fooling themselves.

I've been reading the brief and much of her complaint seems to stem from the idea that the professors in question are requesting that she fundamentally alter her beliefs as opposed to altering her approach on how to treat GLBT individuals. If her complaints are actually valid the university is going to have some major problems. Some of the complaints are frankly appalling and seem to indicate a bias against Christianity and the bible amongst the faculty.

The whole thrust of the university's position is that she hasn't satisfied the requirements for her program.

This student - as well as you, apparently - are asking for a special status for religious beliefs that isn't afforded to other beliefs.

That's not what the brief seems to indicate.

And she's not asking for special status, she's asking that she not be required to enter into a remediation program based on her personal beliefs. So in a way she's asking for a non special status.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

EDIT:
It seems the main affirmation is the following,

She has stated that she believes sexual behavior is the result of accountable personal choice rather than an inevitability deriving from deterministic forces.

Now just for clarification, has it been determined definitively yet that homosexuality is a birth condition?

In terms of male homosexuality (or male orientation in general) at least, it has been determined definitively that sexual orientation is fixed prior to birth. There's some question about how much of it is a function of genetics and how much is a function of neo-natal environment, but by the time you're born, it's set.

BTW - if you read back in the articles and her statement of claim, there are strong hints that she's in favour of "conversion therapy", which has been demonstrated to be ineffective at changing orientation, but very damaging psychologically. Regardless of anything else, that would be a deal-breaker in my mind: it's like a doctor claiming that homeopathy works. It's a clear indication that the student has flat-out rejected fundamental and necessary parts of what they were supposed to have learned.

 

[brbubba]

BTW - if you read back in the articles and her statement of claim, there are strong hints that she's in favour of "conversion therapy", which has been demonstrated to be ineffective at changing orientation, but very damaging psychologically. Regardless of anything else, that would be a deal-breaker in my mind: it's like a doctor claiming that homeopathy works. It's a clear indication that the student has flat-out rejected fundamental and necessary parts of what they were supposed to have learned.

The conversion therapy thing was an alleged complaint by a third party student to the faculty, or so they claim. The girl denies her belief in conversion therapy.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Has there been a follow up on this case.???