Comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

[stevecanuck]

3. The role of Jesus is a major point of contention between Islam and Christianity. The Qur'an makes it crystal clear in several verses that it's blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God and/or God as part of the Trinity (I've honestly never understood the whole Trinity thing) :

2:116 - "They, (the People of the Book), have said that God has taken for Himself a son. He is too glorious to have a son."
4:171 - "People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, ... and say not, 'Three.' ... God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son!"
5:17 - "They are unbelievers [kafara] who say, 'God is the Messiah, Mary's son."
5:72 - "They have certainly disbelieved [kafara] who say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary.'"
5:75 - "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger."
6:101 - "The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort?"
9:30 - "The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God'; the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers [kafaru] before them. God assail them! How they are perverted!"
9:31 - "They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from God, and the Messiah, Mary's son."
10:68 - "They say, 'God has taken to Him a son. ... you have no authority for this. What do you say concerning God that you know not?"
17:111 - "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son."
18:4 - "And to warn those who say, 'Allah has taken a son.'."
19:35 - "It is not for God to take a son."
21:26 - "They say:' 'The All-merciful has taken to Him a son.'."
23:91 - "Never did Allah take to Himself a son."
25:2 - "He hath chosen no son."
39:4 - "If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed."
43:59 - "Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor."
43:81 - "Say (O Muhammad): If the Beneficent One hath a son, then, I shall be first among the worshippers."
72:3 - "... our Lord; He has not taken a wife or a son."

And the granddaddy of them all:

19:88-91 - "And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous! Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent."

 

[icehorse]

And that way we can pretend that we are embarking on yet another thread amateurish, islamophobic scripture-bashing.

Heaven forbid we read the book parsimoniously and take Muslims at their word!

No, no, far better to employ the soft bigotry of low expectations. By all means, carry on!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No, no, far better to employ the soft bigotry of low expectations.

^ the new rallying cry of white grievance ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

19:88-91 - "And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous! Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent."

Yes .. that's it..
G-d has no parents or offspring .. He is not a creature/person.
"sons of God" were understood by Jews (and Jesus) to mean prophets and saints.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes .. that's it..
G-d has no parents or offspring .. He is not a creature/person.
"sons of God" were understood by Jews (and Jesus) to mean prophets and saints.

Where do you get that idea? We know that God called Israel his first born son, and referred to King David as his son, but prophets? no.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

3. The role of Jesus is a major point of contention between Islam and Christianity. The Qur'an makes it crystal clear in several verses that it's blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God and/or God as part of the Trinity (I've honestly never understood the whole Trinity thing) :

2:116 - "They, (the People of the Book), have said that God has taken for Himself a son. He is too glorious to have a son."
4:171 - "People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, ... and say not, 'Three.' ... God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son!"
5:17 - "They are unbelievers [kafara] who say, 'God is the Messiah, Mary's son."
5:72 - "They have certainly disbelieved [kafara] who say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary.'"
5:75 - "The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger."
6:101 - "The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort?"
9:30 - "The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God'; the Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers [kafaru] before them. God assail them! How they are perverted!"
9:31 - "They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from God, and the Messiah, Mary's son."
10:68 - "They say, 'God has taken to Him a son. ... you have no authority for this. What do you say concerning God that you know not?"
17:111 - "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son."
18:4 - "And to warn those who say, 'Allah has taken a son.'."
19:35 - "It is not for God to take a son."
21:26 - "They say:' 'The All-merciful has taken to Him a son.'."
23:91 - "Never did Allah take to Himself a son."
25:2 - "He hath chosen no son."
39:4 - "If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed."
43:59 - "Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor."
43:81 - "Say (O Muhammad): If the Beneficent One hath a son, then, I shall be first among the worshippers."
72:3 - "... our Lord; He has not taken a wife or a son."

And the granddaddy of them all:

19:88-91 - "And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous! Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent."

I have tried explaining the term "Son of God" to you. What I have said is also in agreement with all these verses that you now quote from the Quran.


I explained here:

I was asked about the term "Son of God" in another thread:




The full post including my explanation quotes can be seen here:

Jewish Messiah

The speech of the prophets is a sign language. Their words are symbols and with the symbols they are doing signs. "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John. When you can see the signs then you can hear the speech is true. Like it is exactly as the...

www.religiousforums.com

I am explaining how the term "Son of God" is also the Olive, Oil, and Star. As the symbols are in alignment in the sign language of the prophets.

I see the Quran also speaks of these same terms:

"With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought. He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the sun and the moon; and the stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise". 16:11-12


And the Quran puts these words/symbols into alignment in the same way as I said:

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things. 24:35


Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Moon - Star - Sun

Therefore I logically accept this sign that Muhammad has shown.
He is doing signs (symbol alignment) speaking the same sign language of the Bible prophets.

And here:

Why cant you see it applies here? Where do you think here is?






The speech is symbolism.


I think if you looked into what I said to look into you would see the relation of the terms "Son of God" and Star, and also the relation of the terms "Children of God" and Oil.


Stars as Sons of God:
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:7


Wife is as grape vine, and children as olive plants:
Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Psalm 128:3


And God is as husband:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5



The verses are different layer alignment verses. Can see the son/children position is as olive and star, and the wife position is as grape vine and sun:

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Moon - Star - Sun

I also showed in the Quran it speaks of the two layers. The corn, olive, grape layer then followed by the moon, star, sun layer in the next verse.
Then I showed the Quran verse that puts Olive and the Star into alignment. One symbol from each layer.

Are you not able to understand this?

Also every other post in this thread that I have said to you is in relation to it. Further evidence verifying what I am saying.


But instead of listening and debating what I say you just send me a message.

"I don't want to call you out in the thread, but if you don't stop this I will ask the mods to ban you from the thread.

PLEASE STOP".


Please call me out in the thread. So we can all hear what you think. Tell us what the issue is. Why should I stop?

Tell me your reasoning.

Does what I say not make any sense? Am I wrong? Why is that?

Can you please explain?

 

[stevecanuck]

^ the new rallying cry of white grievance ...

White?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Where do you get that idea? We know that God called Israel his first born son, and referred to King David as his son, but prophets? no.

Well .. who/what was Israel and King David?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well .. who/what was Israel and King David?

Israel aka the People of Israel (b'nei Yisrael) is a tribal People. Like any tribal people, the easiest way to be a member is to be born one, which for us means being born of a Jewish mom. However, also like other tribal peoples, in rare cases we adopt outsiders into the People. The way a person does this for us is by a formal conversion to Judaism. I've mentioned Judaism because that is our religion. Some Jews follow it, and some Jews don't -- for example there are Jews who are atheists. Hebrews=Israelites=Jews There are some 15 million Jews in the world, and we make up just 0.2% of the world's population. About half live in the USA. A large number also live in the modern nation state of Israel, our homeland.

King David was our second King, and is renowned for his closeness to God. He was far from perfect, but he is the most famous of all our kings. You have probably heard of his legendary battle with the Philistine giant, Goliath.

My assumption is that you already had an idea who Israel/the Jews are before you asked, so can you tell me why you asked?

 

[paarsurrey]

muhammad_isa said:

• #84

Yes .. that's it..
G-d has no parents or offspring .. He is not a creature/person.
"sons of God" were understood by Jews (and Jesus) to mean prophets and saints.

• #85

Where do you get that idea? We know that God called Israel his first born son, and referred to King David as his son, but prophets? no.

Genesis 6:1-4​

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
— Genesis 6:1–4, KJV

" the sons of God "

Right?

Regards
____________

Sons of God - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

muhammad_isa said:

• #84

Yes .. that's it..
G-d has no parents or offspring .. He is not a creature/person.
"sons of God" were understood by Jews (and Jesus) to mean prophets and saints.

Genesis 6:1-4​

" the sons of God "

Right?

Regards
____________

Sons of God - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and you think that Jews think the b'nei elohim in this verse refers to prophets?

 

[icehorse]

^ the new rallying cry of white grievance ...

Haha. Do you believe we should take seriously the foundational claims about Islam that ALL Muslims make to the world?

 

[Dimi95]

Surah 5:47:
"So let the people of the Book (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are truly the rebellious."

Tell me , why is he saying LET and JUDGE.
People of the Gospel are the people who CLAIM that Jesus is God.That's how you discribe the People of the Book(Gospel)
Any other explenation will be contradiction.

Ask anybody even the one with the highest knowledge of Islam to translate Surah 19:1.

When you as a Muslim hear the word the First and the Last you say that's Allah(with no doubt) - Quran(57:3).Why then Jesus claimed also : I am The First and the Last? Remember also how long before he claimed that..
Would God allowed someone to do that?
Would God allowed such belief to exist 500 years before the "last revelation"?
Was not God All Powerfull as it is said in the Quran?

These questions are basics , and only few , if i go deep - can you handle that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

My assumption is that you already had an idea who Israel/the Jews are before you asked, so can you tell me why you asked?

..because you were nitpicking over my suggestion that your ancestors termed "sons of God" as people who are "close to God".
Are prophets "close to God"? Of course they are!

 

[Dimi95]

..because you were nitpicking over my suggestion that your ancestors termed "sons of God" as people who are "close to God".
Are prophets "close to God"? Of course they are!

There is no "your" ancestors.
Our "father" and "mother" according to Quran are Adam and Eve.
Or you don't want to go there?

 

[Muffled]

I've frequently been told that the bible and the Qur'an are basically the same; specifically that one's as bad as the other. Okay, let's compare. I know much more about the Qur'an than the bible, so there will be an understood "as far as I know" attached to all my claims about it and I will accept being corrected by those who have studied it. Let's start with the very basics and go from there:

1. The bible is a collection of books divided into two testaments created over several hundred years in three languages by about 40 authors, some of whom claimed to be inspired by God. The Qur'an is one book authored in 22 years in Arabic out of the mouth of one man claiming that every word is verbatim from God. The former is like a menu, while the latter is a fully-plated meal - no substitutions. This allows for the bible to be read 'a la carte'- I'll order the NT with a side of OT. Hold the Deuteronomy. Many Christians that I know do that very thing.

Note: The first 86 surahs of the Qur'an are from Mecca [610-622], while the last 28 are from Medina [622-632]. I consider those groupings to be de facto testaments, especially due to differences in tone and content, but they are compiled together without regard for chronology so that they appear to be one book.

So far, so good?

The Bible is filled with stories but the Qu'ran seems more like a collection of wise sayings somewhat like Proverbs.

 

[Muffled]

Actually, it's a fool's errand. Best of luck.

Strangely enough I believe apples and oranges can be compared.

 

[Muffled]

It seems the bible is the mire violent of the two books

Someone analysed the Bible and Quran to see which is more violent

I believe that makes the Bible more realistic then.

 

[ChristineM]

I believe that makes the Bible more realistic then.

Certainly more violent if that's what you call realistic

 

[stevecanuck]

The Bible is filled with stories but the Qu'ran seems more like a collection of wise sayings somewhat like Proverbs.

Wise sayings? I don't think so. It's filled with commands and proclamations, but not what you would call 'sayings'.