Concerning Submission...

[tomspug]

People often refer to this passage in Ephesians:

• 22.
• Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

• 23.
• For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

• 24.
• Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

But people read this wrong, plainly wrong. In fact, they miss the verse that came right before it...

Submit to each other out of reverence for Christ.

And it goes on, immediately after the oft-quoted scripture to talk about what men are required to do (better sit down for this one guys)...

• 25.
• Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

• 26.
• to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

• 27.
• and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

• 28.
• In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

• 29.
• After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--

• 30.
• for we are members of his body.

Notice how much longer the list of the things guys are supposed to do, and WHAT a list! First point of order, love your wife like Christ loved the church... Do you know what THAT means? Christ died on a cross, gave up his life, gave up everything for the sake of the church. How's that for submission?

But it goes on. Husbands are supposed to be responsible for their wife's sanctity. In other words, God holds you directly responsible for their spiritual life. Fun!

And finally, men are supposed to love their woman like their own body. Does this passage sound like an excuse for marital abuse anymore? I don't think so.

In conclusion, the passage in Ephesians finishes with this thought...

• 33.
• However, each one of you also must love his wife
  
  as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Equality. This is the message of the Bible. Equality does not mean, as so many people assume, that both people do the exact same thing. It means that both people are treated with equal value, as if they are both the same person acting as one.

I think it's pretty clear how misunderstood and misrepresented this entire passage is, and I would encourage you whenever anyone brings up the ONE verse about the submission to husbands that you would recommend they re-read the passage and see what Paul was actually trying to say. Marriage is ANYTHING BUT sexist.

 

[dawny0826]

Very well presented. Marriage was intended to be equal opportunity.

 

[Riverwolf]

Good argument.

Yet another example of why taking verses out of context ruins the entire meaning.

 

[DallasApple]

• 24.
• Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

I dont care what you put before or after it..this opens the door for abuse.Everything would include if he is not following his end of the bargain...

Love

Dallas

 

[dawny0826]

I dont care what you put before or after it..this opens the door for abuse.Everything would include if he is not following his end of the bargain...

Love

Dallas

It's not meant to be read by itself. It's meant to be read in context. And in context, marriage isn't described as an abusive institution.

Would God set us up for abuse?

 

[Scott C.]

I dont care what you put before or after it..this opens the door for abuse.Everything would include if he is not following his end of the bargain...

Love

Dallas

I believe a wife is only expected to "submit" to her husband, in the scriptural sense, if the husband is indeed treating his wife as Christ treats his church. If not, no deal.

 

[DallasApple]

It's not meant to be read by itself. It's meant to be read in context. And in context, marriage isn't described as an abusive institution.

Would God set us up for abuse?

Well it said everything..It didnt say unless your husband isnt loving you right.

And I also dont get why he is to submit to God..while she submits to a human...

And no I don't think God would "set us up" for abuse..But it does happen. In many forms including just plain old neglect..And then we are flat out told God hates divorce.

And why by the way is she specifically instructed to submit to her husband in everything after they have both been instructed submit to one another?(which one is it?)..Why add in a command for her to submit to her husband and then specifically say he submits to God?

Its set up like an order or a chain of command..He answers to God..She answers to a man..

Love

Dallas

 

[Father Heathen]

Would God set us up for abuse?

Well, God condoned and even promoted slavery, fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, forcing rape victims to marry their attackers, stoning people to death for petty offenses, having bears maul children to death, etc, etc, etc. So yeah, possibly.

 

[DallasApple]

I believe a wife is only expected to "submit" to her husband, in the scriptural sense, if the husband is indeed treating his wife as Christ treats his church. If not, no deal.

I agree..It just doesnt say that..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Well, God condoned and even promoted slavery, fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, forcing rape victims to marry their attackers, stoning people to death for petty offenses, having bears maul children to death, etc, etc, etc. So yeah, possibly.

Thats why I was curious and intrigued about Jesus referring to a different father than that of the OT...I dont imagine Jesus doing those things Himself..

And also one of the reasons from my understanding that it was stressed for a husband to love his wife?? Is because back then wives were like property..Like a part of a mans portfolio..It wasn't about love..

Love

Dallas

 

[dawny0826]

Well, God condoned and even promoted slavery, fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, forcing rape victims to marry their attackers, stoning people to death for petty offenses, having bears maul children to death, etc, etc, etc. So yeah, possibly.

Christ explains marriage as an equal partnership. If a marriage is filled with abuse and misery...this wasn't God's intent.

 

[dawny0826]

Well it said everything..It didnt say unless your husband isnt loving you right.

And I also dont get why he is to submit to God..while she submits to a human...

And no I don't think God would "set us up" for abuse..But it does happen. In many forms including just plain old neglect..And then we are flat out told God hates divorce.

And why by the way is she specifically instructed to submit to her husband in everything after they have both been instructed submit to one another?(which one is it?)..Why add in a command for her to submit to her husband and then specifically say he submits to God?

Its set up like an order or a chain of command..He answers to God..She answers to a man..

Love

Dallas

Both are to submit to Christ. When we love, we fulfill the law to the fullest. When we act in love and follow Christ's example, abuse should be a non-issue. If it exists, the individual who chooses to abuse needs to seek help (professional & spiritual).

 

[Scott C.]

Unfortunately, I do believe that some men twist the quoted scripture and use it as an excuse to dominate their wives unrighteously or to abuse them.

 

[Father Heathen]

Christ explains marriage as an equal partnership. If a marriage is filled with abuse and misery...this wasn't God's intent.

From a biblical standpoint abuse and misery doesn't concern God. I mean if he condones and promotes fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, or that the virgins of conquered tribes can be forced into marriage as spoils of war, or that rape victims should be forced to marry their attackers, etc. what would you expect, honestly?

 

[DallasApple]

I realize that wouldnt be Gods intent..But believe me I've talked with Christian men that will take this scripture and twist it in self centered ways..Including she is not in the position to determine if he is spiritually bankrupt because after all he is the head in charge of her not the other way around.Its not up to her to determine his spiritual condition.

My point is..there is room for abuse in these passages ....

In a perfect world though it would work.

Love

Dallas

 

[dawny0826]

I realize that wouldnt be Gods intent..But believe me I've talked with Christian men that will take this scripture and twist it in self centered ways..Including she is not in the position to determine if he is spiritually bankrupt because after all he is the head in charge of her not the other way around.Its not up to her to determine his spiritual condition.

My point is..there is room for abuse in these passages ....

In a perfect world though it would work.

Love

Dallas

Then it seems that these Christian men have dominance issues and these Christian women need the self confidence to tell their abusive husband's to shove it. That's my opinion, anyway...

There is room for misinterpretation of these passages. I agree with you on this.

 

[dawny0826]

From a biblical standpoint abuse and misery doesn't concern God. I mean if he condones and promotes fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, or that the virgins of conquered tribes can be forced into marriage as spoils of war, or that rape victims should be forced to marry their attackers, etc. what would you expect, honestly?

Misery and abuse was meant to bleed and die on the cross. Bondage to misery and abuse is often elective.

Please show me in the New Testament of the Bible where the types of things that you speak of are condoned.

 

[DallasApple]

I seriously met a man that said if he decided it was Gods will for them to live in a tent then it wasnt her job determine if that was truly Gods will for them or not..If he said God told him to do it then she must follow him ...

I've also seen some of this scripture used time and time again to try and manipulate a wife into having sex more often than she wanted..Of course they always as well coupled it with Pauls advice to not deny one another and would say they were being defrauded by their wives..On top of the passsages on your body not being your body anymore but belonging to each other.

Love

Dallas

 

[dawny0826]

I seriously met a man that said if he decided it was Gods will for them to live in a tent then it wasnt her job determine if that was truly Gods will for them or not..If he said God told him to do it then she must follow him ...

I've also seen some of this scripture used time and time again to try and manipulate a wife into having sex more often than she wanted..Of course they always as well coupled it with Pauls advice to not deny one another and would say they were being defrauded by their wives..On top of the passsages on your body not being your body anymore but belonging to each other.

Love

Dallas

Crap. I'm speechless.

 

[DallasApple]

Then it seems that these Christian men have dominance issues and these Christian women need the self confidence to tell their abusive husband's to shove it. That's my opinion, anyway...

There is room for misinterpretation of these passages. I agree with you on this.

I would too (tell them to shove it)...but these guys would throw up that is against God as well because we are commaned to respect oour husbands..They would remind you how disrectful that is...And it doesnt say to "only" respect your husband if he deserves..They would say "should a man only love his wife if he felt like she deserved it"???

Believe me I've been in many debates over this in the past 3 years..Its just went around and around in a circle..

Love

Dallas