Concerning Submission...

[Reverend Rick]

I prefer no leader. Then you get to have this nice little thing called "compromise".

So you believe people should compromise their salvation?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Some folks have a problem with authority.

 

[Father Heathen]

So you believe people should compromise their salvation?

Is god going to toss women into hell for not being doormats and for not makin' the sammiches? Is a relationship based on compromise and equality really such a vile thing? Must the menfolk take the belt off and lay down the law for Jesus?

 

[DallasApple]

Some folks have a problem with authority.

Some folks have a problem being told that they need a man as their authority in their own home simply because he is a man .

Love

Dallas

 

[Watchmen]

I do not have an issue with god, but rather with the biblical portrayal of god.

Or rather your interpretation of God in the Bible.

 

[Ringer]

Why do people think of submitting to someone is akin to saying that the one doing the submitting is lesser of a person? I see it the same way an efficient group works within a company. Look, we all have our talents and can probably be great leaders but in order for this group to run smoothly, lets designate a manager that can keep us organized and ultimately claim responsibility when needed. I don't see why marriage is that much different. When you have a husband and wife that are both desiring to control the other, it poses potential conflicts. That does not mean the two don't comprise and we revert back to the stereotypical stone-age man that abuses the wife and uses her as a doormat. My parents and many of the marriages of the close friends in my church seem to be anything but that. Both husband and wife are going to desire to be over the other. You clearly find that in the Bible - "...Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." You can't have both ruling over each other and you also can't have both submitting. Men are called to love their wives in the same way they love their bodies as well as the way Christ loves his church. The wives are to submit the same way that the church submits to Christ. In a God honoring household, this does not cause strife or resentment because being submissive is every way just as important as being the head of the household; probably even more important.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Equality. This is the message of the Bible. Equality does not mean, as so many people assume, that both people do the exact same thing. It means that both people are treated with equal value, as if they are both the same person acting as one.

I think you're projecting todays values onto an ancient culture. There is no evidence that the Hebrews ever considered the concept of gender equality. I would agree that this is an attempt to get men to treat their women better but I don't think it was a change in how they view women within the culture and that was as property.

If you want to see an ancient culture that was closer to gender equality try the ancient Celts. There marriage laws were more advanced than the ones we use today.

Ancient Celts: Celtic Marriage

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, either one submits to the other or there's no submission at all. It's impossible to have BOTH people submit. Either there is a clear leader or there is no leader. Those are your only options.

How about no one submits? That way, bot people are equal and have equal input on a decision.

Some folks have a problem with authority.

Yes, actually I do.

 

[DallasApple]

Why do people think of submitting to someone is akin to saying that the one doing the submitting is lesser of a person? I

But at the time it was written by a man??? Women WERE considered lesser of a person.They were considered less capable..And in NEED of a man as her authority and head.A woman wasnt even allowed to own property?? How is that not "lesser"..Where was she supposed to live?

A man was to "aquire" a wife as part of a respectable portfolio.

Love

Dallas

 

[methylatedghosts]

Man oh man...you have really got some issues with god! But you are an atheist...you dont believe god exists remember! And if god is such a scoundrel like you have portrayed him here...how come the two of you are NOT getting along swimmingly? hmmmmmm (Lets check your title again: yes it says scoundrel, unless you change it again)

About submission. Somebody cant serve you unless you shut up and sit still. (exaggerating here a bit, but im hoping to drive through a point)

Do you want to be served? Yes or no. Someone can hardly give you a haircut if your grabbing the scissors all the time, and running around the salon. Somebody can not serve you food at a restaurant if your in the kitchen telling the cook what to do.

Your husband cant serve you ...unless you have some inclination to SUBMIT, surrender, let go...trust.

Heneni

What makes you think we need to be served?

 

[methylatedghosts]

Why do people think of submitting to someone is akin to saying that the one doing the submitting is lesser of a person? I see it the same way an efficient group works within a company. Look, we all have our talents and can probably be great leaders but in order for this group to run smoothly, lets designate a manager that can keep us organized and ultimately claim responsibility when needed. I don't see why marriage is that much different. When you have a husband and wife that are both desiring to control the other, it poses potential conflicts. That does not mean the two don't comprise and we revert back to the stereotypical stone-age man that abuses the wife and uses her as a doormat. My parents and many of the marriages of the close friends in my church seem to be anything but that. Both husband and wife are going to desire to be over the other. You clearly find that in the Bible - "...Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." You can't have both ruling over each other and you also can't have both submitting. Men are called to love their wives in the same way they love their bodies as well as the way Christ loves his church. The wives are to submit the same way that the church submits to Christ. In a God honoring household, this does not cause strife or resentment because being submissive is every way just as important as being the head of the household; probably even more important.

Why should one control the other?

Can't a married couple simply work together?

 

[Heneni]

What makes you think we need to be served?

I did ask...do you want to be served YES or NO. I did not say i think we need to be served.

Its not a bad idea to be served though. Its nice, it requires being humble. The gentiles lord over their 'servants'. But thats not the way it works in the kingdom of god. In the kingdom the servants are the greatest.

We dont bring god anything. We dont serve him. What can we bring him that he needs? He does not lack anything. He instead brings us sunshine, rain, and much more. He brings us spiritual blessings etc. He serves us...that requires us to SUBMIT to recieve what he wants to give. If you dont submit to god, he can hardly give you anything. As i said...you cant be served with a good meal, if your in heaven telling god how to cook

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Why should one control the other?

Can't a married couple simply work together?

If a husband and wife continually try to serve each other, there will hardly be any time to control each other.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Why should one control the other?

Can't a married couple simply work together?

No one says they can't. The discussion is on whether the bible was promoting equality or simply instructing men to be more careful with their personal property.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I guess I just prefer not to be served.

I feel being served is restricting, confining.

And if indeed it requires, like you say, a submission in some way, then it means *I* need to be something that *I* am not, in order to be served.

 

[MoonWater]

So you believe people should compromise their salvation?

Well since I don't believe in salvation or that humans need "saving" from anything that argument really isn't going to work on me now is it. That's just my personal preference. True at work you need someone who is in charge but then you have a lot of people to deal with, I don't see why that should carry over to the home. If having someone as the "head" of the family works for others and they're happy with it fine they can go ahead and do that. Are you suggesting that god would send someone to hell simply because they decided to compromise with their spouse in a disagreement rather than command or obey to solve the issue?

 

[DallasApple]

I dont think there is anything bad about 'serving" each other..I think of that is like just doing things for each other to help each other or just to make the other person feel loved and cared for.Back and forth.

My problem is assigning the man headship over her simply because he is a man..and her being assinged the submissive roll simply becasue she is a woman..Period.NOT that if a couple is content that way and using these terms and the man is in fact loving her in the manner Christ loves all of us then more power to you ...

Love

Dallas

 

[Father Heathen]

Or rather your interpretation of God in the Bible.

So all the slavery, rape, bear mauling, baby snuffing, stoning bits were all allegory? The whole thing is pretty trashy and if god were real I'm sure he would be quite offended and insulted by being portrayed as some petty, infantile ogre.

 

[DallasApple]

So all the slavery, rape, bear mauling, baby snuffing, stoning bits were all allegory? The whole thing is pretty trashy and if god were real I'm sure he would be quite offended and insulted by being portrayed as some petty, infantile ogre.

I mean its not up to me...But would you PLEASE get that evil clown face off of your avatar..???

Its scary and abnoxious!

Love

Dallas

 

[Father Heathen]

Its scary and abnoxious!

Precisely!