Concerning Submission...

[tomspug]

I think you're projecting todays values onto an ancient culture. There is no evidence that the Hebrews ever considered the concept of gender equality. I would agree that this is an attempt to get men to treat their women better but I don't think it was a change in how they view women within the culture and that was as property.

If you want to see an ancient culture that was closer to gender equality try the ancient Celts. There marriage laws were more advanced than the ones we use today.

Ancient Celts: Celtic Marriage

Doesn't it seem a little naive to assume that the traditions of one people group's ancestors 2000 years earlier would be identical to the one in Paul's time?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Doesn't it seem a little naive to assume that the traditions of one people group's ancestors 2000 years earlier would be identical to the one in Paul's time?

Sure, but what are you trying to say here? I'm not sure I understand the context of your question.

 

[tomspug]

Sure, but what are you trying to say here? I'm not sure I understand the context of your question.

Well, Paul's passage about submission was written around 30 to 40 AD. The only Biblical passages I can think of that you would use to argue that the Bible supports subjugation of women refers to a time period LONG before then. And it can even be argued that the Bible itself does not condone nor support those actions.

My point is that I see Paul's depiction of the marriage relationship as being balanced and equal (not in status, but in love).

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Well, Paul's passage about submission was written around 30 to 40 AD. The only Biblical passages I can think of that you would use to argue that the Bible supports subjugation of women refers to a time period LONG before then. And it can even be argued that the Bible itself does not condone nor support those actions.

My point is that I see Paul's depiction of the marriage relationship as being balanced and equal (not in status, but in love).

In love, sure, I can buy that. But in status the woman was still property. You're saying that the at some point prior to 30 AD the Hebrew people changed from viewing women as property. Ok, what evidence do you have to support that? At what point did the change take place? Surely such a serious change in cultural attitude would have some historical markers. The passage you reference is not evidence of this level of change. Sure it can be argued that the passage teaches love, caring and tolerance for the women in a man's life but you can show all of those emotions and attitudes for any piece of property.

Of course, you're certianly welcome to take whatever message you wish from Paul. If it helps you spiritually, it can't be wrong.

 

[DallasApple]

In love, sure, I can buy that. But in status the woman was still property. You're saying that the at some point prior to 30 AD the Hebrew people changed from viewing women as property. Ok, what evidence do you have to support that? At what point did the change take place? Surely such a serious change in cultural attitude would have some historical markers. The passage you reference is not evidence of this level of change. Sure it can be argued that the passage teaches love, caring and tolerance for the women in a man's life but you can show all of those emotions and attitudes for any piece of property.

Of course, you're certianly welcome to take whatever message you wish from Paul. If it helps you spiritually, it can't be wrong.

Well..at least the women rised to the level to the sheep the men herded..

Love

Dallas

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Well..at least the women rised to the level to the sheep the men herded..

The sheep were often treated much better than the women. Sheep had to be purchased after all, signifying their worth in society. If a woman wanted to get married, her family had to pay the guy to take her away. Aren't traditions fun?

 

[DallasApple]

The sheep were often treated much better than the women. Sheep had to be purchased after all, signifying their worth in society. If a woman wanted to get married, her family had to pay the guy to take her away. Aren't traditions fun?

WHOOPIE!!!!

How ROMANTIC!!! My DADDY had LOTS of money(and sheep) so that he can pay my husband to marry me!!!

I feel so VALUED and loved...

Im all warm and fuzzy now...But WHO cares.????????

SUBMIT WOMAN!

Love

Dallas

 

[Darkness]

While your argument may appear convincing to some, tomspug, it ultimately fails because you make believe that Paul commanding husbands to love their wives is the same as Paul instructing wives to submit to their husbands. You can love a dog with all your heart but you will never treat it with the same autonomy as a human being. To those of us on the outside, this interpretation of Paul's words is crystal clear. However, when you approach the text with presumptions (e.g. Paul, a man of God could not be prejudice against women) and believe that the Word of God cannot contradict itself, you find what your soul desires to find.

 

[DallasApple]

You can love a dog with all your heart but you will never treat it with the same autonomy as a human being. To those of us on the outside, this interpretation of Paul's words is crystal clear. However, when you approach the text with presumptions (e.g. Paul, a man of God could not be prejudice against women) and believe that the Word of God cannot contradict itself, you find what your soul desires to find

Paul was whispering into a howling wind of men who objecitfied women..

Love

Dallas