Concerning Submission...

[DallasApple]

Crap. I'm speechless.

I was speechless at first..Then I became quite vocal...Men talking about resenting the church because they wouldnt do a Mat 18 process on their wives for being in defiance of God.And this believe it or not was over sexual refusal..They could not understand why the church would not intervene.They were looking for a Biblical loop to get a divorce..They could call her an unbeleiver if she did not "repent" and that she was not content to live with him so he got a pass to leave her..

I've seen it all...and this is when I first started getting educated on the Bible..and wanted to start going back to church..I cant imagine how many people they ran off..

Love

Dallas

 

[dawny0826]

This is one of the reasons why I really don't affiliate myself with any particular church. And although I believe that God doesn't do cartwheels when people divorce, I believe sometimes, it's the most practical and sane solution. I don't believe that God intended for us to subject ourselves to devastating situations when we can opt out of them.

The church could label me anything they wanted. If my husband was a dominating jerk and I was unhappy, I'd leave him. As for any spiritual repercussions, those would be between my Saviour and myself.

 

[DallasApple]

This is one of the reasons why I really don't affiliate myself with any particular church. And although I believe that God doesn't do cartwheels when people divorce, I believe sometimes, it's the most practical and sane solution. I don't believe that God intended for us to subject ourselves to devastating situations when we can opt out of them.

The church could label me anything they wanted. If my husband was a dominating jerk and I was unhappy, I'd leave him. As for any spiritual repercussions, those would be between my Saviour and myself.

I couldnt agree more..Im just saying..they are out there..

Then they run around whining that in fact its women who file 2/3 of all divorces.And its mostly by far for frivelous non Biblical reasons.

Love

Dallas

 

[Father Heathen]

I would too (tell them to shove it)...but these guys would throw up that is against God as well because we are commaned to respect oour husbands..They would remind you how disrectful that is...And it doesnt say to "only" respect your husband if he deserves..They would say "should a man only love his wife if he felt like she deserved it"???

Believe me I've been in many debates over this in the past 3 years..Its just went around and around in a circle..

Love

Dallas

The guys that think like that have probably never been in a relationship, much less a marriage. Unless they somehow managed to sucker a doormat into it.

 

[tomspug]

It says "submit to each other out of reverence for God". In other words, if you are submitting for any other reason... (fear, self-gain, appeasement, etc.) It's wrong.

My personal belief for why submission is good is because it brings stability to the household, not just because the Bible says so. If the husband and wife can't come to an agreement on something, one person should have the final say. This should be whoever is decided to be the "head of the household", which is usually the husband. If there is no hierarchy in the relationship, you are dooming your marriage to some kind of business partnership, not an actual relationship, where one person gets his way sometime and the other gets their way other times.

The point of marriage is to do things together. Which is why submission is ONLY good if you're both doing it for the right reasons: love. Any other kind of submission should be avoided altogether.

I get what you say, Dallas. I think that, in general, submission for submission's sake is wrong. It should only be done out of reverence for God and for the loving partnership you share.

 

[DallasApple]

It says "submit to each other out of reverence for God".

But it doesnt stop there..It goes on to tell the wife specifically to submit to her husband becuase he is the head the same as Christ is head of the church..

It elevates him to a level of her God or Lord or however you want to call it within the marriage dynamic.And she is positioned to submit.(simply because she is a woman)

In other words..The man should be considered by her to be the Christ of the marriage/household .(simply because he is a man)

Love

Dallas

 

[tomspug]

But it doesnt stop there..It goes on to tell the wife specifically to submit to her husband becuase he is the head the same as Christ is head of the church..

It elevates him to a level of her God or Lord or however you want to call it within the marriage dynamic.And she is positioned to submit.(simply because she is a woman)

In other words..The man should be considered by her to be the Christ of the marriage/household .(simply because he is a man)

Love

Dallas

But what if the husband ISN'T being Christ-like?

The temptation, I think, is to focus on the idea that we have to treat the husband like God. But I think the correct way to focus on it is that the HUSBAND has an obligation to DESERVE that submission. Perhaps Paul should have written the husband part, then the wife part (he was never a great writer on relationships, let's face it). Why should you submit to your husband? BECAUSE he gave up everything to love and protect you. That's what Christ did. That's why the church submits to him, not because Christ said so. So why should we think it should be that way in our marriages?

 

[DallasApple]

BECAUSE he gave up everything to love and protect you.

But my husband didnt "give up" anymore than I did when we married.We both gave up things..And its not like he didnt gain anything either..So did I..

If it was him making such a huge sacrifice of givign up "everything" then why in the hell was he chasing me around begging me to get married????

Love

Dallas

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see "take care of your wife" being anywhere close to "submit to your wife."

 

[tomspug]

I don't see "take care of your wife" being anywhere close to "submit to your wife."

Well, either one submits to the other or there's no submission at all. It's impossible to have BOTH people submit. Either there is a clear leader or there is no leader. Those are your only options.

 

[dawny0826]

I suppose I'm a crappy wife because I have issues with submission. (Or moreso, a fair weather Christian.)

 

[Heartfelt]

Well, God condoned and even promoted slavery, fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, forcing rape victims to marry their attackers, stoning people to death for petty offenses, having bears maul children to death, etc, etc, etc. So yeah, possibly.

What you say is true but it wasn't condoned by God...that all was decissions of man-made ideals in paganism...and yes bad things do happen to good people but it's not due to God condoning it...I guess we just have to trust that in the bigger picture where there is redemption it all looks different...there really was nothing wrong with slavery because if you look under what the law required yopu to do where slaves were concerned it didn't EVER mean they were to be made to be less or to be abused...they were to be treated with love and kindness and after a period of years of service they were to be set free unless they chose to stay then they were bondd to you but still were to be treated decently...this still was not God's will for people to own each other...He has been very tolerant of some of the things we as humans have come up with in our lifetimes in our dealings with each other.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm not good with submission. That's why we have handcuffs.

 

[MoonWater]

Well, either one submits to the other or there's no submission at all. It's impossible to have BOTH people submit. Either there is a clear leader or there is no leader. Those are your only options.

I prefer no leader. Then you get to have this nice little thing called "compromise".

 

[Father Heathen]

What you say is true but it wasn't condoned by God...that all was decissions of man-made ideals in paganism...and yes bad things do happen to good people but it's not due to God condoning it...

Nope. It was all in, condoned and promoted by the bible itself.

I guess we just have to trust that in the bigger picture where there is redemption it all looks different...there really was nothing wrong with slavery because if you look under what the law required yopu to do where slaves were concerned it didn't EVER mean they were to be made to be less or to be abused...they were to be treated with love and kindness and after a period of years of service they were to be set free unless they chose to stay then they were bondd to you but still were to be treated decently...this still was not God's will for people to own each other...He has been very tolerant of some of the things we as humans have come up with in our lifetimes in our dealings with each other.

Well then I'm sure you'll have no objections if I put you and your family in shackles and make you work the fields. Perhaps I could sell your children to a bordello for some decent coin. The bible suggests beating disobedient slaves. Did you know that?

 

[Father Heathen]

I suppose I'm a crappy wife because I have issues with submission. (Or moreso, a fair weather Christian.)

You don't want to make god angry, do you? It's part of god's plan for you be barefoot in the kitchen, makin' sammiches for the menfolk.

 

[Watchmen]

Here's the latest "official" word from the LDS hierarchy for all you heathens to criticize:

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

 

[methylatedghosts]

What you say is true but it wasn't condoned by God...that all was decissions of man-made ideals in paganism...

Methinks you need to do a teeny bit more research into paganism...

 

[Heneni]

From a biblical standpoint abuse and misery doesn't concern God. I mean if he condones and promotes fathers selling their daughters to suitors against their will, or that the virgins of conquered tribes can be forced into marriage as spoils of war, or that rape victims should be forced to marry their attackers, etc. what would you expect, honestly?

Man oh man...you have really got some issues with god! But you are an atheist...you dont believe god exists remember! And if god is such a scoundrel like you have portrayed him here...how come the two of you are NOT getting along swimmingly? hmmmmmm (Lets check your title again: yes it says scoundrel, unless you change it again)

About submission. Somebody cant serve you unless you shut up and sit still. (exaggerating here a bit, but im hoping to drive through a point)

Do you want to be served? Yes or no. Someone can hardly give you a haircut if your grabbing the scissors all the time, and running around the salon. Somebody can not serve you food at a restaurant if your in the kitchen telling the cook what to do.

Your husband cant serve you ...unless you have some inclination to SUBMIT, surrender, let go...trust.

Heneni

 

[Father Heathen]

Man oh man...you have really got some issues with god! But you are an atheist...you dont believe god exists remember! And if god is such a scoundrel like you have portrayed him here...how come the two of you are NOT getting along swimmingly? hmmmmmm (Lets check your title again: yes it says scoundrel, unless you change it again)

About submission. Somebody cant serve you unless you shut up and sit still. (exaggerating here a bit, but im hoping to drive through a point)

Do you want to be served? Yes or no. Someone can hardly give you a haircut if your grabbing the scissors all the time, and running around the salon. Somebody can not serve you food at a restaurant if your in the kitchen telling the cook what to do.

Your husband cant serve you ...unless you have some inclination to SUBMIT, surrender, let go...trust.

Heneni

I do not have an issue with god, but rather with the biblical portrayal of god.