Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

Which Indian would deny that?Wrong information again. People are selected in Indian Army at lower level on basis of the population of the region. So, the percentage of Sikhs in the Army is not much different from the percentage of Sikhs in India. Punjab makes X% of the population, therefore, X% of the Army from Punjab. There are many traditional warrior people in India. Rajputs, Jats, Mahars, Gorkhas (they are Indian generally from region around Darjeeling). We are proud of them too. As for the Sikhs bodyguards of Indira Gandhi, it was a charged atmosphere at that time and nobody acted in a way that a normal person would. It was unfortunate because it resulted in a communal riot.Whatever these sites or books say and for whatever reason, we know the background very well. While Congress dabbled with socialism, BJP was a rightist party and advocated economic reforms all the time.Millions of Sikhs visit the Mother Goddess temples and pilgrimage centers like Haridwar and Pushkar. Sri Guru Gobind Singh visited Pushkar and prayed there. Sikhs have hymns in praise of Shiva and Shakti. However the later Sikhs may paint it, their word is not truer than the word of Gurus.

"Chandi Charitar Ukti Bilas is a heroic poetic composition which describes the glories and praises and worship of the Hindu goddess deity Chandi and describes her victories over many demons, and included in the 4th chapter of Dasam Granth, whose authorship is generally and traditionally attributed to Guru Gobind Singh."
Chandi Charitar Ukti Bilas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guru Gobind Singh was a worshipper of the Divine Mother (Shri Bhagauti/Bhagawati)
chandi charitar - YouTube
deh shiva bar mohe - YouTubeDo it yourself. And not just the information on the net, talk to people from India.Lakshmi Mittal lives in UK but is an Indian national. He hails from Rajasthan. A correction, He is the richest Asian in Britain but he is the eighth richest person in UK.Who does not need job security, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Christians? Who? check this: https://www.google.co.in/#q='Proud+to+be+Sikh%2C+proud+to+be+Indian'+&safe=active
About 3,910,000 results (0.34 seconds)

I actually couldn't find a legitimate website but I hear Sikhs make up 80% of the Indian army during war periods and only 2% in peacetime. On Wikipedia it says,

' Sikhs still make up 10–15% of all ranks in the Indian Army and 20% of its officers,[65] while Sikhs form only 1.87% of the Indian population, which makes them over 10 times more likely to be a soldier and officer in the Indian Army than the average Indian.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh#cite_note-BBC_News-66Kundu, Apurba (Spring, 1994). "The Indian Armed Forces' Sikh and Non-Sikh Officers' Opinions of Operation Blue Star". Pacific Affairs 67 (1): 46–69. doi:10.2307/2760119. JSTOR 2760119.
"After partition: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh". BBC In Depth (BBC News). 8 August 2007. Retrieved 4 April 2008.

Here is another article on Singh's reforms. Note that the book I used was written by an economist and how one of the links was from Economic Times.

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/pdf/int_manmohansingh.pdf

Anyway, i've said many,many times that Guru Gobind Singh did not 'worship' any of the Hindu Gods. He used them to motivate the Sikhs AND the Hindus-particularly the battles of Durga

Page 35, Line 4
He hath created and destroyed Brahmas and Rudras (Shivas).
Page 41, Line 11
Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.
Page 43, Line 13
Many Rudras (Shivas) of ghastly appearance are there; many unique Ramas and Krishnas are there. 10.40.
Page 48, Line 8
If the Lord is realised by the practice of austerities, then none is more austere than god Shiva; if the Lord meets by the recitation of Vedas, then none is more conversant with the Vedas than the god Brahma: there is also no great performer of asceticism than Sanat Kumar (the son of Brahma).
Page 48, Line 10
There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna.
Page 71, Line 9
The gods Shiva, Indra and Brahma repeat `Neti, Neti` about Him.3.183.
Page 75, Line 11
But the Vedas, Shiva, Rudra and Brahma could not Know His mystery and the secret of His notions.
Page 86, Line 2
Millions of Indras are at His service. Millions of the Yogi Rudras (Shivas stand at His Gate.
Page 88, Line 7
Shiva also could not know His limits; the adepts (Siddhas) alongwith Naths and Sanak etc. meditated upon Him.

http://www.sikhreview.org/pdf/january2008/pdf-files/history1.pdf
Dasam Granth - Its History

I'd much prefer a Sikh brother explain the Dasam Granth and the Hindu stories as most say they are metaphors/ are actually written by Hindus

Not to mention the smoking gun linking Hinduism to Sikhism would be statues of Durga,Kali,Shiva,Krishna and Rama in Sikh Temples as the first 3 are mentioned in Dasam Granth and the latter 3 are mentioned in both Dasam and Guru Granth Sahib.

and the google search link you gave me showed me one youtube video with a big 'dislike' bar, a facebook page with only 19 fans, and most of the pages about Sikhs proud to be Sikh (not Sikhs proud to be Indian)

 

[ronki23]

Proud Indian Sikhs don't need to make any websites. They have better things to concentrate on.

And, your last two paragraphs are only emotional digressions. They have no affiliation with the concern of Punjabi Sikhs in India. The alliance between various ethno-linguistic groups is already strong, albeit sometimes ethnic tensions do arise but never into full blown catastrophes like 1984 and fascist ethnic riots perpetrated by Marathis on South Indians and North Indians.

I have no idea what it is that you are even trying to say anymore. I don't even know what your argument is anymore. You have this unsafe fear that Punjabi Sikhs both in India and abroad hate India and every single Hindu in the world. This fear, as I understand it, was born from reading Khalistani websites online, is that correct? Well, what part of Khalistani websites not resembling ground-realites in Indian Punjab do you not understand? You are literally generalizing and ostracizing a whole group of people that have contributed a lot to the betterment of India. For some reason, you keep bringing in Gandhi and Sardar (which is ironic because Sardar didn't identify a lot with most of Gandhi's views); I am Gujarati, and I'm not even fond of Gandhi.....Bhagat Singh was betrayed by Gandhi....Bhagat Singh could have brought forth independence. Gandhi didn't do anything to stop the hanging of Bhagat Singh. Even Godse stressed that Gandhi was more motivated by population control than objective and rational truth. You are using non-correlative paradigms to evaluate this whole thing about Indian Punjabi Sikhs and what not without taking heed to the fact that what is written on the Internet is not representative of the ground reality. And, I truly believe that you still have yet to watch that interview with Swami, where he relays his documented encounter with Bhindranwale; Swami explains the alterations done by the Congress Party on 1984 and the facts pertaining to the Golden Temple and how there was a political involvement pertaining to communism and the loss of the Punjabi identity and language; the two spend a lot time together - in fact, the two got along quite well. Please, watch the video. And, please....buy a plane ticket and go to the Indian Punjab (which is 37%+ Hindu) and evaluate the ground-reality yourself. And, while you are at it, travel to other Indian states where Punjabi Sikhs have moved to and have contributed a lot in terms of business and ask them personally, instead of relying on what UK or Canadian Sikhs sprout on the Internet.

How am I supposed to watch a one hour long video in Hindi/Punjabi? Isn't there a more convenient one I can look at?

And Bhagat Singh was hung in 1931, India's independence was after the Second World War. Bombing a courtroom and shooting a police officer isn't going to relinquish control of India from the British. As many have pointed out, India's independence movement was a joint effort which Gandhi contributed toward. Hating Gandhi is like an American hating any of the Founding Fathers/Presidents on the dollar bills.

And please don't talk to me about Punjabi Hindus, they've caused enough grief in my life already (I have one in my family and she helped destroy it) or their warped views on the other religions e.g. Sikhs,Jains and Buddhists being Hindus and Muslims being a foreign enemy (I know many,many unrelated Hindu Punjabis and they all have this view).

And the websites are not Khalistani websites. They are 'normal' Sikh sites:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/34683-does-sikhism-confirm-existence-hindu-gods-2.html

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php...-and-deception-hindu-gangs-target-sikh-girls/

http://www.sikhawareness.com/

I've got others. Topix is one but it's a bit of a cesspool

 

[Poeticus]

How am I supposed to watch a one hour long video in Hindi/Punjabi? Isn't there a more convenient one I can look at?

And, therein lies the problem. I'm not even speaking to a "real Desiya" am I? Nor am I speaking to someone who would be open to give something new a try especially when he already has his ostracizing view made up, right?

And Bhagat Singh was hung in 1931, India's independence was after the Second World War. Bombing a courtroom and shooting a police officer isn't going to relinquish control of India from the British. As many have pointed out, India's independence movement was a joint effort which Gandhi contributed toward. Hating Gandhi is like an American hating any of the Founding Fathers/Presidents on the dollar bills.

False correlation. And, you are getting off topic.

And please don't talk to me about Punjabi Hindus, they've caused enough grief in my life already (I have one in my family and she helped destroy it) or their warped views on the other religions e.g. Sikhs,Jains and Buddhists being Hindus and Muslims being a foreign enemy (I know many,many unrelated Hindu Punjabis and they all have this view).

Ronki, please stop embarrassing yourself. You are using your own personal life experiences and the rubbish anti-India, anti-Hindu, radically extremist, fundamentalist pro-Khalistani stuff you encounter ON THE INTERNET to make an argument for ALL OF PUNJABI SIKHS IN INDIA.

Buy a plane ticket. Go to Indian Punjab. Make a documentary. Or something. But, please, give this thread a break.

One of my cousin-in-laws is a Punjabi Sikh. (okay, more like one of my uncle-in-law).....But, he's really awesome, and so is his whole family. They moved from Punjab to Ahmedabad a few years ago and have a good productive business there. Not that it matters; you already have your mind made up on Punjabi Sikhs due to what you encounter online (which is mostly stuff written by Canadian and UK Sikhs).

 

[ronki23]

And, therein lies the problem. I'm not even speaking to a "real Desiya" am I? Nor am I speaking to someone who would be open to give something new a try especially when he already has his ostracizing view made up, right?



False correlation. And, you are getting off topic.



Ronki, please stop embarrassing yourself. You are using your own personal life experiences and the rubbish anti-India, anti-Hindu, radically extremist, fundamentalist pro-Khalistani stuff you encounter ON THE INTERNET to make an argument for ALL OF PUNJABI SIKHS IN INDIA.

Buy a plane ticket. Go to Indian Punjab. Make a documentary. Or something. But, please, give this thread a break.

One of my cousin-in-laws is a Punjabi Sikh. (okay, more like one of my uncle-in-law).....But, he's really awesome, and so is his whole family. They moved from Punjab to Ahmedabad a few years ago and have a good productive business there. Not that it matters; you already have your mind made up on Punjabi Sikhs due to what you encounter online (which is mostly stuff written by Canadian and UK Sikhs).

I'll first remind everyone again, i'm a Gujarati Hindu but i've had bad experiences with Hindu and Jain Indians from Bangalore,Mumbai/Maharashtra and (in particular) Delhi as of late; extremely selfish and segregated people (unless you're of the opposite gender).

I'm also a British Asian but I hate being compared with them. Particularly as British Muslims go around bashing Western foreign policy and abstaining from pork yet they drink alcohol and act like morons.

The problem is, there are also stupid Anglicised Sikhs that shave, wear no turbans and pierce themselves. They then go out and bash others. The Guru Granth Sahib states that Islam had an influence too yet Hindu Punjabis and Anglicised Sikhs both seem to deny this

https://www.facebook.com/Global.Sikh.Awareness/posts/347505678617592


Anyway, i've posted the quotes from both Granths regarding Sikhism's link to Hinduism. I'll also repost this bad boy

[youtube]iCP93ePhVZ4[/youtube]
Nihang explains origin of 5Ks in Sikhism (from Hinduism) - YouTube

I'm trying to tell user @Aupmanyav and the Hindu Punjabis that Sikhs only use the stories of Hindu deities as metaphors and poetry. However, i'd like to show @Treks and @Satnaam this as they do not like the idea of mixing Sikhism with Hinduism even though Guru Gobind Singh did so himself. What is their (and YOUR) opinion on this.

I myself am a Sanatan Sikh simply because I enjoyed the time I had with them. I was becoming more and more depressed and Sikhism helped me. I like Hinduism and am interested in it, but as individuals, I think the Sikhs Gurus Hargobind, Tegh Badahur and Arjan Dev helped Hindus and should be respected.

 

[Poeticus]

Ronki,

Who says that the Sikh Gurus cannot be respected? One of my biggest role-models is Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh-ji. And, please take statements by Jatt Sikhs from UK/Canada found online with a grain of salt. The best advice that I can give you is to go to Indian Punjab and make a documentary. Apart from that, I don't know what else I can say.

 

[Treks]

I'm trying to tell user @Aupmanyav and the Hindu Punjabis that Sikhs only use the stories of Hindu deities as metaphors and poetry. However, i'd like to show @Treks and @Satnaam this as they do not like the idea of mixing Sikhism with Hinduism even though Guru Gobind Singh did so himself. What is their (and YOUR) opinion on this.

The authorship of the Dasam Granth is disputed. Most likely it's a collection of poetry bound up with some poems which may have been by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Truth is, we don't know.

But it's pretty clear that if you read the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the stories in the Dasam Granth aren't exactly in the same theme. The focus of Guru Granth Sahub Ji is IK ONKAR - ONE universal creative principle. Nothing else matters.

Guru Nanak spent his life dispelling myths. Sikhi loses it's originality when people try to absorb it into "Sanatan Dharma". Just let it be the unique religion that it is.

But whatever, you've got your own ideas and have made up your own mind. Likewise.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I actually couldn't find a legitimate website but I hear Sikhs make up 80% of the Indian army during war periods and only 2% in peacetime.

Read carefully. That was about British India Army. Now the state quota based on population is there.
"Govt has a rule that only a fixed percentage can join Army from a state. This quota must go" - Indian Express

Sikhs in states other than Punjab can certainly enrol in that states quota. This rule does not include officers which are selected on all-India basis. I am also searching for a legitimate site to put the matters at rest.

Anyway, i've said many,many times that Guru Gobind Singh did not 'worship' any of the Hindu Gods. He used them to motivate the Sikhs AND the Hindus-particularly the battles of Durga.

We are least worried by that. Whenever the occasion arises we will join them in their prayers. And at other occasions, they will join us in our prayers. Hindus will keep on visiting Sikh temples (Gurudwaras) and sikhs also (many, if not all) will keep on visiting Hindu temples.

I'd much prefer a Sikh brother explain the Dasam Granth and the Hindu stories as most say they are metaphors/ are actually written by Hindus.

For your sake, I hope somebody will do that.

Not to mention the smoking gun linking Hinduism to Sikhism would be statues of Durga,Kali,Shiva,Krishna and Rama in Sikh Temples as the first 3 are mentioned in Dasam Granth and the latter 3 are mentioned in both Dasam and Guru Granth Sahib.

No, we understand that Sikhs are not supposed to worship idols (only the Book and the phtographs of their Gurus ).

And the google search link you gave me showed me one youtube video with a big 'dislike' bar, a facebook page with only 19 fans, and most of the pages about Sikhs proud to be Sikh (not Sikhs proud to be Indian)

Must be the diaspora. We are not worried about that too.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. as they do not like the idea of mixing Sikhism with Hinduism even though Guru Gobind Singh did so himself. What is their (and YOUR) opinion on this.

Oh, they think, they are wiser than Sri Guru Gobind Singh.

The Guru Granth Sahib states that Islam had an influence too yet Hindu Punjabis and Anglicised Sikhs both seem to deny this. .. I think the Sikhs Gurus Hargobind, Tegh Badahur and Arjan Dev helped Hindus and should be respected.

I do not deny that Islam influenced Sikhism. Muslims were strong in Punjab at that time. Then, there were many Sufis, their poems form the part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Nearly one fifth of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is poems by Kabir, whom all Sikhs and Hindus rever, perhaps one of our greatest philosophers of middle ages. He too was a muslim, though like Nanak, he did not consider religion a bar. I take Sri Guru Nanak to be the greatest exponent of Upanishads in Punjabi. .. And do you think Sri Guru Hargobind, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur, and Sri Guru Arjan Dev are not respected by Hindus?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The authorship of the Dasam Granth is disputed. Most likely it's a collection of poetry bound up with some poems which may have been by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Truth is, we don't know.

You worship it, you bow to it. It was compiled by Sikh Gurus. It is the only Guru that you have now. Do you deny it? (What kind of Sikh are you?)

 

[Poeticus]

Ronki,

Here's some "ground-reality" for your paranoid self:

YouTube[youtube]00NkGQNlSbM[/youtube]

 

[Poeticus]

And, the paranoia should cease after watching the following. You think the Indian government, let alone the Indian Punjab government, will allow Canadian Sikhs to dictate the politics of Punjab?

YouTube[youtube]8lOq0TOCnDY[/youtube]

 

[ronki23]

And, the paranoia should cease after watching the following. You think the Indian government, let alone the Indian Punjab government, will allow Canadian Sikhs to dictate the politics of Punjab?

YouTube[youtube]8lOq0TOCnDY[/youtube]

Before I watch these, I must point out that there are a huge number of 'dislikes' and comments 'liked' by separatist Sikhs so it is not the be-all, end-all of this debate.

Also, i'm intrigued why so many Sikhs are in Canada. Is it because post 1984 (when i'm assuming these Khalistanis emigrated after the bloodshed in India) the Sikhs chose Canada because the legendary Thatcher cut immigration into the UK?

Is there a reason the American,Australian and African Sikhs don't complain? I'm assuming they are more 'educated' on this matter so don't speak out as much as UK/Canadian Sikhs.

I can't really blame the Separatists Sikhs for being like this. I'd love to read the arguments regarding the Hindu genocide though.

Thanks for the information though

 

[ronki23]

You worship it, you bow to it. It was compiled by Sikh Gurus. It is the only Guru that you have now. Do you deny it? (What kind of Sikh are you?)

She said Dasam Granth Sahib, not Guru Granth Sahib. From what I know from the Sikh end, it's a secular book and has input from Hindus. I was told it never overrides the Guru Granth Sahib.

But yes, I would love to know what Sikhs think of the Dasam Granth and their opinion on the Hindu stories in it (particularly the Khalistanis).

Another question (to all Sikhs), are there any verses of the Qu'ran or writings about Abrahamic figures?

 

[Treks]

You worship it, you bow to it. It was compiled by Sikh Gurus. It is the only Guru that you have now. Do you deny it? (What kind of Sikh are you?)

LOL. What Ronki said. Yes, I deny it wholeheartedly!!! The Dasam Granth is NOT the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and even amongst Sikhs who hold the Dasam Granth in high regard they still don't put it at par with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Depending on which Sikh you talk to, the Dasam Granth is either entirely the work of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji (either just his poetry or his Bani), or it's a collection of poetry by other authors with some contributions by Guru Gobind Singh (that's where I fit), or it's entirely a collection of poetry by other authors.

I do not worship Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I have bowed to it plenty of times - and in doing so I'm bowing to the wisdom contained in it and God from whom that wisdom comes.

What kind of Sikh am I? Gori. But just recently I'm taking a step back for the time being as I struggle with my own cultural identity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Also, i'm intrigued why so many Sikhs are in Canada. Is it because post 1984 (when i'm assuming these Khalistanis emigrated after the bloodshed in India) the Sikhs chose Canada because the legendary Thatcher cut immigration into the UK?

We have a story in which a camel asked his master in the tent to allow to keep his head in the tent, which the master agreed to. Then it asked the master to keep his neck in, later he asked the master to keep his body in, and lastly since most of the body was already in, why not he be allowed to keep in the tail as well. It is so with emigrants everywhere, from a country which offers less facilities to a country that offers more. Not just the Sikhs, but also Gujaratis, Keralites, Bengalis, Tamils, Sri Lankans, Burmese, Tibetans, Thais, Philipinose, Muslims, any one. The Mizos were accepted as the lost tribe of Israel. Many of them emigrated to Israel and then to US.

"Sikhs have been in Canada since at least 1887. One of the first Sikh soldiers arrived in Canada following Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee. Sikhs were one of the few Asian immigrant communities who were loyal members of the British Empire. Sikhs found employment in laying the tracks of the Canadian Pacific Railway, in lumber mills and mines. Though they earned less than white workers, they made enough money to send to India and get relatives to immigrate to Canada. The first Sikh pioneers came to the Abbotsford area in 1905 and originally worked on farms and in the lumber industry."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in_Canada#Early_immigration

Historical population (of Sikhs in Canada)
Year Pop. ±%
1981 67,715 —
1991 147,440 +117.7%
2001 278,410 +88.8%
2011 454,965 +63.4%

Make immigration easier, more would flow in. They can all claim asylum. This is what is happening in Australia, Greece, and Italy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Depending on which Sikh you talk to, the Dasam Granth is either entirely the work of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji (either just his poetry or his Bani), or it's a collection of poetry by other authors with some contributions by Guru Gobind Singh (that's where I fit), or it's entirely a collection of poetry by other authors.

If it comes to denying, then even Sri Guru Granth Sahib has no seal of authenticity. It was also complied by other people through the ages. No book can claim that.

Guru Granth Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dasam Granth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for wisdom, you can find it in many books, even those of Sam Harris, Daniel C. Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Victor J. Stenger and Christopher Hitchens.

 

[Treks]

You forgot my favourite, Prof. Lawrence Krauss. <3

Authorship of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is much clearer than that of Dasam Granth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You forgot my favourite, Prof. Lawrence Krauss.

Lawrence Krauss says 'nothing', not even Brahman (or perhaps Brahman is none other than 'nothing'). He is my favorite too. I am more of a 'nothing' man.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Historical population (of Sikhs in Canada)
Year Pop. ±%
1981 67,715 —
1991 147,440 +117.7%
2001 278,410 +88.8%
2011 454,965 +63.4%

See the statistics. increase in the number of sikhs continued even after 1991, by which time, the affected Sikhs had been rehabilitated. But the influx continued, because they had found a way to immigrate, claiming to be persecuted.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You seriously think that these terrorist organizations are going to win against the Indian Punjab and the ever-famous, most-seasoned Sikh Regiment and even the Jatt Regiment, let alone the Rajput Rifles?

They fool the Sikhs into parting with their money and they get help from Pakistan. There are many former Sikh terrorists in Punjab who have settled there after surrendering and they are extremely rich.