Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[Treks]

Sikhs are majority Punjabi - do you have a problem with that? I'm not sure I understand your issue with them wanting their homeland back, intact. The majority of Sikh's I've met either don't care about Khalistan or consider it a global community rather than an actual physical place.

I don't know enough about Israel/Palastine to have discussion about that.

What do you meant the Gurdwara is "dharmic"?

Sikhs are Sikhs, not Hindus, as much as some Hindus will try to tell you Sikhi is a branch of Sanatan Dharma. Sikhs get defensive because we don't want our religion conflated with Sanatan Dharma.

As for your social life, maybe try a special interest group instead of a religious or cultural group.

 

[ronki23]

Sikh DIR- it involved Sikhs and I am looking why Hindus consider Sikhs as brothers and why Sikhs do not

Sikhs are majority Punjabi - do you have a problem with that? I'm not sure I understand your issue with them wanting their homeland back, intact. The majority of Sikh's I've met either don't care about Khalistan or consider it a global community rather than an actual physical place.

I don't know enough about Israel/Palastine to have discussion about that.

What do you meant the Gurdwara is "dharmic"?

Sikhs are Sikhs, not Hindus, as much as some Hindus will try to tell you Sikhi is a branch of Sanatan Dharma. Sikhs get defensive because we don't want our religion conflated with Sanatan Dharma.

As for your social life, maybe try a special interest group instead of a religious or cultural group.

I have no problem with Sikhs being Punjabi but at Church they don't expect you to speak Latin (not today anyway), at Mandir they don't expect you to speak Sanskrit and at Mosque they don't expect you to speak Arabic: a Gurudwara in the UK should have people speaking English no? Yes I'm Indian but one shouldn't automatically assume I speak Punjabi through the colour of my skin

Anyway, sorry if I offended you and sorry in advance if the paragraph above seems naive but Sikhs are a Dharmic religion right? Hence the reason I went as I was told they are a relative of Hinduism. Guru Nanak was born into a Hindu family wasn't he? Wasn't one of his sons living as a Sadhu?

You yourself say Sikhs want their homeland back and websites suggest they seem out of place in India. I see that they serve vegetarian food so the Jains,Buddhists and Hindus eating langar do not get offended.It also seems they cremate their dead due to cultural reasons and not religious reasons.Therefore it seems that similarities between Sikhs and Hindus are cultural and geographic

you agree that Sikhs were 'originally' Hindus before Guru Nanak was born? I agree the idea of a holy book and 5 attributes come from Islam - something Hindus deny.

it seems that Hindus consider Sikhs as 'one of them' due to Dharmic beliefs which in turn come fromgeographic proximity and a 'common enemy' . Therefore,Sikhs do not like being considered Hindu so want another country right?
It's getting late in the UK and I'm tired as it's 3.25 AM but it seems the Sikhs rightfully want a) their own identity and b) more rights but this is only achieved by c) an independent country. Bhindranwale pioneered c)

Do Sikhs actually enjoy being Indian? Do they agree that pre-Guru Nanak they were Hindus? As stated, I can find many Muslims against Arafat and against Osama bin Laden (some see him as a freedom fighter) but I see no Sikhs against Bhindranwale and it really IS a black and white situation

 

[Treks]

I have no problem with Sikhs being Punjabi but at Church they don't expect you to speak Latin (not today anyway), at Mandir they don't expect you to speak Sanskrit and at Mosque they don't expect you to speak Arabic: a Gurudwara in the UK should have people speaking English no? Yes I'm Indian but one shouldn't automatically assume I speak Punjabi through the colour of my skin

I think Punjabi Sikhs worry about losing their culture, especially in the diaspora. Holding on to their language is important to them. It will still take a couple of generations for English to become the dominant language and that will be a bad thing for Sikhs because Guru Granth Sahib Ji will always be in predominatly Punjabi language and always in Gurmukhi script.

Is your problem with the service being in Punjabi (i.e. the kirtan) or people speaking to you in Punjabi socially?

I'm white and have the same problem - in Sikhi the language barrier is thick.

Anyway, sorry if I offended you and sorry in advance if the paragraph above seems naive but Sikhs are a Dharmic religion right? Hence the reason I went as I was told they are a relative of Hinduism. Guru Nanak was born into a Hindu family wasn't he? Wasn't one of his sons living as a Sadhu?

I don't know, what does it mean to be a Dharmic religion? Yes, Guru Nanak was born into a Hindu family.. but he wasn't a Hindu, he resisted their rituals flamboyantly. I don't know much about his sons except that he didn't choose one of them to become Guru after him.

You yourself say Sikhs want their homeland back and websites suggest they seem out of place in India. I see that they serve vegetarian food so the Jains,Buddhists and Hindus eating langar do not get offended.It also seems they cremate their dead due to cultural reasons and not religious reasons.Therefore it seems that similarities between Sikhs and Hindus are cultural and geographic

Yeup.

you agree that Sikhs were 'originally' Hindus before Guru Nanak was born? I agree the idea of a holy book and 5 attributes come from Islam - something Hindus deny.

Saywhat? No. "Sikhs" are Sikhs of Gurus Nanak through to Guru Granth Sahib Ji... there were no 'Sikhs' before that, what we would call as 'Sikhs' today anyway. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say. Many Hindus and Muslims joined Sikhi in the early days. There are shabads by Hindus and Muslims in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I'm still not sure what you're trying to allude to. Sikhi is Sikhi... it's not Islam, it's not Hinduism, it's not Buddhism or Christianity...

it seems that Hindus consider Sikhs as 'one of them' due to Dharmic beliefs which in turn come fromgeographic proximity and a 'common enemy' . Therefore,Sikhs do not like being considered Hindu so want another country right?
It's getting late in the UK and I'm tired as it's 3.25 AM but it seems the Sikhs rightfully want a) their own identity and b) more rights but this is only achieved by c) an independent country. Bhindranwale pioneered

Are you using "Hindu" as in culture as distinct from Sanatan Dharma? Like, I can be an Australian and a Christain... are you saying people can be Hindu and a Sikh (where Hindu is equivelant of Australian)? Some people don't make a distinction, I'm not sure if you are or not.

Do Sikhs actually enjoy being Indian?

I don't know. Not all Sikhs are Indian. A lot have also been born outside of India now, and were born in different cultures and have converted.

Do they agree that pre-Guru Nanak they were Hindus? As stated, I can find many Muslims against Arafat and against Osama bin Laden (some see him as a freedom fighter) but I see no Sikhs against Bhindranwale and it really IS a black and white situation

No, a lot of early converts to Sikhi were Hindus and Muslims.

Do you think Sikhs should be against Bhindranwale? Why? Because he was in the Golden Temple with his buddies which is why the Indian army decided to choose a very busy time of pilgramage to attack Hamrandir Sahib and massacre hundreds of innocent people?

 

[LuisDantas]

Also, what do Sikhs think of Siddharta? Because Buddha had the same core beliefs and was therefore absorbed by both Hindus and the folk religions of China and Japan.

Not to derail the thread, but that is arguable at best.

 

[ronki23]

Not to derail the thread, but that is arguable at best.

Buddha IS in Hinduism and the East Asian religions and he came fom Nepal

 

[ronki23]

I think Punjabi Sikhs worry about losing their culture, especially in the diaspora. Holding on to their language is important to them. It will still take a couple of generations for English to become the dominant language and that will be a bad thing for Sikhs because Guru Granth Sahib Ji will always be in predominatly Punjabi language and always in Gurmukhi script.

Is your problem with the service being in Punjabi (i.e. the kirtan) or people speaking to you in Punjabi socially?

I'm white and have the same problem - in Sikhi the language barrier is thick.



I don't know, what does it mean to be a Dharmic religion? Yes, Guru Nanak was born into a Hindu family.. but he wasn't a Hindu, he resisted their rituals flamboyantly. I don't know much about his sons except that he didn't choose one of them to become Guru after him.



Yeup.



Saywhat? No. "Sikhs" are Sikhs of Gurus Nanak through to Guru Granth Sahib Ji... there were no 'Sikhs' before that, what we would call as 'Sikhs' today anyway. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say. Many Hindus and Muslims joined Sikhi in the early days. There are shabads by Hindus and Muslims in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I'm still not sure what you're trying to allude to. Sikhi is Sikhi... it's not Islam, it's not Hinduism, it's not Buddhism or Christianity...



Are you using "Hindu" as in culture as distinct from Sanatan Dharma? Like, I can be an Australian and a Christain... are you saying people can be Hindu and a Sikh (where Hindu is equivelant of Australian)? Some people don't make a distinction, I'm not sure if you are or not.



I don't know. Not all Sikhs are Indian. A lot have also been born outside of India now, and were born in different cultures and have converted.



No, a lot of early converts to Sikhi were Hindus and Muslims.

Do you think Sikhs should be against Bhindranwale? Why? Because he was in the Golden Temple with his buddies which is why the Indian army decided to choose a very busy time of pilgramage to attack Hamrandir Sahib and massacre hundreds of innocent people?

You agree that before Sikhs, the population was Hindu no? Which means that those that Guru Nanak baptised were Hindu-therefore people say Sikhs were originally Hindu.
I believe Guru Nanak's son was a Sadhu and there are several branches of Sikhism who believe in both Hinduism and Sikhism- Sanatan Sikhism.
After researching Sikh beliefs, I would even go as far as saying that if Sikhs came from say, Brazil or Nigeria, the Hindus would not share anything with them. It seems Sikh-Hindu friendships are convenient due to geography. If this were to have been true, then maybe Nanak's son would have been a priest of a tribal religion.

As for this Bhindranwale story, even with Islam you get Muslims against freedom fighters like Arafat,Bin Laden and Khomeini but the Bhindranwale situation is completely black and white.

I can see only one problem with Bhindranwale: A) He took sanctuary in the Temple in the first place, endangering 100s, B) He said he'd kill 5000 Hindus if their demands weren't met. Though his demands for Punjab not to be partitioned were right but something caused him to go militant and do A and B.

Which brings me back to the conclusion that those who support Bhindrnwale also back the Khalistan movement.

P.S The signs in Gurudwara and the language spoken t o each other was Punjabi, no issue with the SGGS and prayers in Punjabi but they shouldn't assume I spoke it conversationally. It just baks my claim Sikhs aren't happy being Indian

 

[Poeticus]

You agree that before Sikhs, the population was Hindu no?

Hindu and Muslim.

It just baks my claim Sikhs aren't happy being Indian

The Congress Party isn't something to be happy about. Furthermore, the number of Sikhs that say that they are not happy being Indian are greatly outnumbered by the millions of Sikhs that serve in the Indian Armed Forces. The Indian Punjab (which comprises of both Punjab [Sikh] and Haryana [Hindu]) has contributed vastly to the Indian army in terms of service and dedication.

 

[Treks]

What can I say Ronki ji ?

Sikhs aren't Hindu or Muslim no matter what religion people were before they converted. Why do you keep bringing it up? And it doesn't matter which "sect" of alleged Sikhs you're talking about, the only Sikhs to be concerned with is that in the Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji. And for extra guidance in plain language we can look to the Rehab Myriads published by the SGPC.

I was a Pagan 10 years ago before converting to Sikhs, what does what tell you about Sikhi? Nothing.

Regards to Bhindranwale I asked a few posts back where Bhindranwale said anything about 5000 Hindus and I kindly wait for your reference.

The people at my Gurdwara automatically think Im not a Sikh and ask me if Im there with my Punjabi husband, yet my husband never goes thrrr either me and he's certainly not Punjabi or Sikh. People make assumptions. The other problem is this wacky notion that Sikhs aren't supposed to convert people. Sure, it'd not something we go out and do but I think Punjabi Sikhs have taken it too far and it just reinforces their being insular and uber protective of their culture.

Whereas other religions actively seek converts its in their best interest to learn the language of the

 

[Treks]

And insofar as Sikhs aren't happy being Indian, you can't make a statement like that. 1. Not all Sikhs ARE from the Indian subcontinent. 2. Its a blanket over generalization of Sikhs who are Indian or who have Indian ancestry. But anyway there's not much more I can say about it really.

 

[ronki23]

What can I say Ronki ji ?

Sikhs aren't Hindu or Muslim no matter what religion people were before they converted. Why do you keep bringing it up? And it doesn't matter which "sect" of alleged Sikhs you're talking about, the only Sikhs to be concerned with is that in the Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji. And for extra guidance in plain language we can look to the Rehab Myriads published by the SGPC.

I was a Pagan 10 years ago before converting to Sikhs, what does what tell you about Sikhi? Nothing.

Regards to Bhindranwale I asked a few posts back where Bhindranwale said anything about 5000 Hindus and I kindly wait for your reference.

The people at my Gurdwara automatically think Im not a Sikh and ask me if Im there with my Punjabi husband, yet my husband never goes thrrr either me and he's certainly not Punjabi or Sikh. People make assumptions. The other problem is this wacky notion that Sikhs aren't supposed to convert people. Sure, it'd not something we go out and do but I think Punjabi Sikhs have taken it too far and it just reinforces their being insular and uber protective of their culture.

Whereas other religions actively seek converts its in their best interest to learn the language of the

I need a translator here


[youtube]DICDYAX_O1g[/youtube]
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DICDYAX_O1g

Anyway, to you and the person who posted before you, if you have zero Sikhs against Bhindrnwale, surely this means the 99% who support him (this is not a specific figure but I'm sure the majority of Sikhs believe he did nothing wrong) would also want partition from India no? They do not speak Hindi at Gurudwara but neither do I; yes there are Sikhs in the military but you have Muslims in the Israeli and American military too. Plus those Sikhs who served in the military are most likely British Raj veterans.
My question is, do the majority of Sikhs really feel Indian if they support Bhindranwale because from the forum and wiki links I've posted of moderate Sikh websites, it seems they do not like being Indian.

the belief in karma,dharma and reincarnation are shared by Sikhs,Hindus,Buddhists and Jains alike so I'm assuming that is the reason Sikhs and Hindus who don't hate each other celebrate the same festivals/behave the same. As a non-practising Hindu I feel comfortable going to Gurudwara but a Muslims doing the same I can't foresee as they believe there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is the Final Prophet of Allah-I'm sure other religions wouldn't go to Gurudwara either (except today's Christians)

I'm assuming that if Sikhs came from say Brazil or Nigeria, the Hindus would not go to the Gurudwara. I don't see Hindus going to Chinese Daoist or Japanese Shinto Temples even though they too have Dharmic beliefs. It seems the Sikh/Hindu relatiohip is a coincidence based on geography.

 

[Treks]

Thanks for the link Ronki ji, Ill ask someone who knows Punjabi for a summary if someone here doesn't beat me to it.

I see what you mean now about the relationship between Hindus and Sikhs and Hindus visiting Gurdwara. In your experience does it ever go the other way with Sikhs visiting Mandirs?

Unfortunately you might need to ask your questions at one of the other forums you previously linked to as Im not sure there is a big enough Sikh membership here to really nut out your question about how Indian Sikhs feel about India and Khalistan.

 

[Treks]

the belief in karma,dharma and reincarnation are shared by Sikhs,Hindus,Buddhists and Jains alike so I'm assuming that is the reason Sikhs and Hindus who don't hate each other celebrate the same festivals/behave the same.

The vast majority of Sikhs believe in karma and reincarnation (I'm not sure what you mean by 'dharma'), although I'm not 100% sure those concepts are actually part of Sikhism but have crept in due to, as you say, geographical and cultural nearness to Sanatan Dharma.

I notice that, just like Christians did to pagan festivals, Sikhs have a tendency to do to traditionally Hindu or cultural festivals like Vaisakhi (shifting the focus from harvest festival to Khalsa festival) and Diwali (celebrating Diwali but making a nod to Bandi Chor Diwas). Let say, at the Gurdwara I go to, they have Diwali dinner, not a Bandi Chor dinner.

I might just start find a Sikh event to reference while I celebrate Eid al-Fitr next year and see what happens! LOL

 

[Poeticus]

My question is, do the majority of Sikhs really feel Indian if they support Bhindranwale because from the forum and wiki links I've posted of moderate Sikh websites, it seems they do not like being Indian.

I can't answer for the Punjabi Sikhs here, but what I can offer is something to think about:

Let's say the Punjabi Sikhs do not want to be Indian anymore....

Well, then they need to stop speaking in the Indic (Indian) language known as Punjabi and its various dialects....

They need to stop following the Punjabi culture which is a sub-set of the overall Indian culture since Indian culture is a grouping of various Indian-ethno-linguistic cultures.

The same problem can go for Pakistani Punjabis. They aren't "Indian", but speak an Indic language and their culture is Islamically influenced no doubt, but the foundation is still the same: a variation of the overlying Indic culture: respect parents and elders, don't forget mother tongue(s), Caste-affiliation (Punjabis are still proud in boasting of their Jatt and Rajput affiliations, correct?), etc. These are very "Indic" qualities.

Lastly, the stopping of the above would eradicate their identity, would it not? The dream for having Khalistan is non-practical. Who would support it? Pakistan and China? It would just become a ground for terrorists on their way to enslaving "Hindu India"...

And, you think India would allow millions of its soldiers to just disband like that?

But, most importantly, what does any of this have to do with Sikhism??????? Socio-Cultural Sikhs =/= Sikhism. Even Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh would agree. You think he cared if the person he was baptizing was a Punjabi or a Tamil or an Englishman????

 

[Treks]

Thanks MV for putting the focus on the practical aspect of the discussion.

I agree that Khalistan is a dream and is unlikely to ever become an actual physical place and energy of the Panth could be better spent on other tasks.

I guess what would have been nice is if during the partition of orignal India, instead of slicing Punjabi in half they should have cut around it. It's a distinct region of its own with rich heritage. Why did they cut it in half?

I can see how this discussion is related to Sikhi on a level but really do appreciate you pointing this out:

Socio-Cultural Sikhs =/= Sikhism.

Many thanks

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste, Treks-ji:

Whenever someone develops a dividing mindset concerning Sikhs and Punjabis and India, I quickly think of how Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh would have handled it.

And, he most likely would have said the following:

"I don't care what language you speak, what color you are, nor what culture you are of; the Sikh's goal is to be a lion and defend Sikhi from the encroachments of wrong".

 

[ronki23]

I can't answer for the Punjabi Sikhs here, but what I can offer is something to think about:

Let's say the Punjabi Sikhs do not want to be Indian anymore....

Well, then they need to stop speaking in the Indic (Indian) language known as Punjabi and its various dialects....

They need to stop following the Punjabi culture which is a sub-set of the overall Indian culture since Indian culture is a grouping of various Indian-ethno-linguistic cultures.

The same problem can go for Pakistani Punjabis. They aren't "Indian", but speak an Indic language and their culture is Islamically influenced no doubt, but the foundation is still the same: a variation of the overlying Indic culture: respect parents and elders, don't forget mother tongue(s), Caste-affiliation (Punjabis are still proud in boasting of their Jatt and Rajput affiliations, correct?), etc. These are very "Indic" qualities.

Lastly, the stopping of the above would eradicate their identity, would it not? The dream for having Khalistan is non-practical. Who would support it? Pakistan and China? It would just become a ground for terrorists on their way to enslaving "Hindu India"...

And, you think India would allow millions of its soldiers to just disband like that?

But, most importantly, what does any of this have to do with Sikhism??????? Socio-Cultural Sikhs =/= Sikhism. Even Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh would agree. You think he cared if the person he was baptizing was a Punjabi or a Tamil or an Englishman????

But as you yourself said, Pakistan and Bangladesh chose not to be a part of India and are still of Indic culture mixed with Sharia law. Sikhs could do the same thing.

And PLENTY of countries of similar culture and language (even though Punjabis don't speak the other languages of India) that have split apart and formed their own identity:

1. Taiwan/China
2. Korea
3. Palestine/Jordan
4. UAE-Bahrain-Oman
5. Ireland/Northern Ireland

As for Khalistan , i'm speculating here but they'd have trade with China, Russia, Canada, Iran, etc. These articles have more:

shaheedkhalsa.com
Khalistan » Economic Viability

It seems that both India and Pakistan need Punjab as opposed to the other way around

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

It seems that both India and Pakistan need Punjab as opposed to the other way around

ਇਸ ਵਕਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਰਾਸ਼ਟਰਵਾਦ ਵਧਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਕੋਈ ਜ਼ਰੂਰਤ ਨਹੀਂ.

 

[Poeticus]

ਇਸ ਵਕਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਰਾਸ਼ਟਰਵਾਦ ਵਧਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਕੋਈ ਜ਼ਰੂਰਤ ਨਹੀਂ.

Noble Jas,

Can you, por favor, translate the above for people like me who are very ignorant of the honorable Gurumukhi script? You don't even have to translate it; you could just transliterate it if you feel that to be more comfortable - my Punjabi is very rough - but, I think I could make do with what I know .

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Noble Jas,

Can you, por favor, translate the above for people like me who are very ignorant of the honorable Gurumukhi script? You don't even have to translate it; you could just transliterate it if you feel that to be more comfortable - my Punjabi is very rough - but, I think I could make do with what I know .

"Is vakt vich punjabi'oN dA rAshtravAda vadauna lei koi zarurat nahi", meaning "there's no need to increase Punjabi nationalism at this time." I was just noticing that he seems to think the majority of Punjabis dislike India and/or seems to be afraid of Khalistanis, yet at the same time makes a statement regarding India needing Punjab and Punjab not needing India. This seems highly hypocritical coming from him, and if anything would drive Hindus and Sikhs further apart.

 

[Poeticus]

"Is vakt vich Punjabi'on dA rAshtravAda vadauna lei koi zarurat nahi", meaning "there's no need to increase Punjabi nationalism at this time." I was just noticing that he seems to think the majority of Punjabis dislike India and/or seems to be afraid of Khalistanis, yet at the same time makes a statement regarding India needing Punjab and Punjab not needing India. This seems highly hypocritical coming from him, and if anything would drive Hindus and Sikhs further apart.

Thank you for that clarification regarding the translations; I was wrong: I wasn't even able to translate it correctly.
-----------------

Agreed. This is not the correct time to increase such nationalism. However, the sentiments of Sikh Punjabis, nationalistic or secessionist, I fully understand. I do not agree with them, but I fully understand.

Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh, the Eternal Lion, fought against the injustice that many Sikhs today face due to the Congress Government.

--------------------------

The reason I have a hard time believing, however, that majority of Sikh Punjabis want to secede from India is the mere fact that millions of them happily serve in the Indian Armed Forces, with hundreds of thousands of new recruits signing up every two to three years. I have always heard from my youth that a Sikh Punjabi mother always sends her oldest son to fight for India, it's like some tradition. Is this correct?

Furthermore, you told me awhile back that you, yourself, are a Punjabi, even if you are Punjabi Hindu. Are you from Haryana or Punjab (the land of the noble Rishis and Rishikas our forefathers and foremothers :bow? How do you, if I may ask, approach this matter regarding Punjabi Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus? It seems that many forget that there are millions of Punjabi Hindus as well: hundreds of thousands of them belonging to the same Punjabi clans as Punjabi Sikhs and other related sub-ethnicities? Culturally, both groups are the same, correct? Linguistically as well, right? And, definitely ethno-linguistically?