Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[Jaskaran Singh]

Praṇām Maitrāvaruṇiḥ-jī,

Thank you for that clarification regarding the translations; I was wrong: I wasn't even able to translate it correctly.

Trust me, most Punjabis wouldn't understand it either as one of the words I used (rAshtravAda/ਰਾਸ਼ਟਰਵਾ&#2598 is highly-Sanskritized...

Agreed. This is not the correct time to increase such nationalism. However, the sentiments of Sikh Punjabis, nationalistic or secessionist, I fully understand. I do not agree with them, but I fully understand.
Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh, the Eternal Lion, fought against the injustice that many Sikhs today face due to the Congress Government.

It was not just Śrī Guru Gobind Singh Jī, but Bābā Dīp Singh, Guru Tegh Bahādur, Guru Arjan Dev Jī, the Choṭe Sāhibzāde, Bhāi Dayāl [Dyāla] Dās, Bhai Mati Dās, and others as well.
Guru Arjan Dev Jī's shaheedi under the orders of Jahangir is often forgotten by many, (even by many Sikhs) although it too is quite depressing. BTW, speaking of Guru Arjan Dev Jī's shaheedi, I found this great video with Gurbāni Kirtan playing in the background:
[youtube]PE9d687KYXI[/youtube]
Sikh Videos - Sri Guru Arjan Dev Martyrdom Part 1 - YouTube

The reason I have a hard time believing, however, that majority of Sikh Punjabis want to secede from India is the mere fact that millions of them happily serve in the Indian Armed Forces, with hundreds of thousands of new recruits signing up every two to three years.

I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but the majority of Khālistānis I've met are illiterate paindus, usually from the diaspora (particularly Canada and the UK), who complain about Bhāratiya-"oppression" and use 1984 as an excuse to hate all Hindus. I don't know where ronki23 is getting his "statistics" from.

I have always heard from my youth that a Sikh Punjabi mother always sends her oldest son to fight for India, it's like some tradition. Is this correct?

I thought that was only during Mughal oppression, although I'm not completely sure.

Furthermore, you told me awhile back that you, yourself, are a Punjabi, even if you are Punjabi Hindu

I'm pretty sure I told you that I was more of a syncreticist that just a "Hindu" or a "Sikh"...

Hey, on HDF it says your religion is Sikhism, is that true?

Well, I grew up as a Sikh, still go to a Gurdwara, keep the panj-kakke, etc. although I'm philosophically more inclined towards Hinduism (specifically, the dvaitadvaita school of Nimbarkacharya, which I think I told you before), and have been so for the past three or four years. Also, I also pray at a mandir whenever I feel like it, which according to the SGPC would be going against the Guru Granth Sahib, but I never really cared about the SGPC or Akal Takht thinks, . My father really isn't very religious and my mother is a Sikh with Shaiva-leanings (she usually fasts on Somvar) and also occasionally goes to the Shiv Mandir in Pahar Ganj (although she and I also go to Bangla Sahib every Tuesday). So yeah, I'm kind of a syncreticist (mainly because I don't want to leave the religion I was born into and see no reason to do so).

Are you from Haryana or Punjab?

I answered this one in the PM as well. I said I lived in a city in Hoshiarpur District, which is located in Punjab.

(the land of the noble Rishis and Rishikas our forefathers and foremothers :bow?

Uhh...the Himālaya-s are to the east of Punjab.

How do you, if I may ask, approach this matter regarding Punjabi Sikhs and Punjabi Hindus? It seems that many forget that there are millions of Punjabi Hindus as well: hundreds of thousands of them belonging to the same Punjabi clans as Punjabi Sikhs and other related sub-ethnicities? Culturally, both groups are the same, correct? Linguistically as well, right? And, definitely ethno-linguistically?

For the most part, yes. What's your point though?

I guess what would have been nice is if during the partition of orignal India, instead of slicing Punjabi in half they should have cut around it. It's a distinct region of its own with rich heritage. Why did they cut it in half?

You do realize that the majority of the terrorism in Pakistan is funded and actively supported by the Pakistani ISI (which consists primarily of Punjabi Muslims), right? I, for one, wouldn't want the majority of Sikhs to constantly be under the possible threat of terrorism or a part of a religious-extremist cesspool state (and I say this having lived in Lahore for two years).

 

[Treks]

Was the west half of Punjab always a cesspool or only after it was partitioned?

 

[ronki23]

Praṇām Maitrāvaruṇiḥ-jī,


Trust me, most Punjabis wouldn't understand it either as one of the words I used (rAshtravAda/ਰਾਸ਼ਟਰਵਾ&#2598 is highly-Sanskritized...

It was not just Śrī Guru Gobind Singh Jī, but Bābā Dīp Singh, Guru Tegh Bahādur, Guru Arjan Dev Jī, the Choṭe Sāhibzāde, Bhāi Dayāl [Dyāla] Dās, Bhai Mati Dās, and others as well.
Guru Arjan Dev Jī's shaheedi under the orders of Jahangir is often forgotten by many, (even by many Sikhs) although it too is quite depressing. BTW, speaking of Guru Arjan Dev Jī's shaheedi, I found this great video with Gurbāni Kirtan playing in the background:
[youtube]PE9d687KYXI[/youtube]
Sikh Videos - Sri Guru Arjan Dev Martyrdom Part 1 - YouTube

I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but the majority of Khālistānis I've met are illiterate paindus, usually from the diaspora (particularly Canada and the UK), who complain about Bhāratiya-"oppression" and use 1984 as an excuse to hate all Hindus. I don't know where ronki23 is getting his "statistics" from.

I thought that was only during Mughal oppression, although I'm not completely sure.

I'm pretty sure I told you that I was more of a syncreticist that just a "Hindu" or a "Sikh"...


I answered this one in the PM as well. I said I lived in a city in Hoshiarpur District, which is located in Punjab.

Uhh...the Himālaya-s are to the east of Punjab.

For the most part, yes. What's your point though?

You do realize that the majority of the terrorism in Pakistan is funded and actively supported by the Pakistani ISI (which consists primarily of Punjabi Muslims), right? I, for one, wouldn't want the majority of Sikhs to constantly be under the possible threat of terrorism or a part of a religious-extremist cesspool state (and I say this having lived in Lahore for two years).

The reason I believe Sikhs don't feel happy being Indian come from the websites I referred to in my earlier posts, websites with 'normal' Sikhs

Surly if you believe Bhindranwale was right, you must also believe Congress was bad; both of those things would mean you don't want to be Indian right?

Anyway, we can see with N/S Korea,China/Taiwan and N.Ireland/Republic of Ireland , that similar countries can split

And as I've stated before, I'm Gujarati Hindu but I have felt alienated by Indians as my course had 10% Indian students (12/120) who seemed to only like drinkers or Hindi speakers; I guess brown teetotallers are too 'uncool' for them

Hi,

Here's what i've found and this is what makes me think Sikhs are not happy with being Indians:

Why Are So Many Moderate Sikhs Against Khalistan - WHAT'S HAPPENING? - The Voice of Sikhs

Bhindranwale - A Terrorist or a Freedom Fighter?

Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

SikhLionz.com: Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale

If I google 'Sikhs against Khalistan', there are very few results too.

My main question is why those that support Bhindranwale ignore how he said he will kill 5000 Hindus if his demands weren't met.

I do not know both sides of the story enough but Congress in India has overseen a lot of problems in the country (the rapes, Khalistan movement, TTLE attacks) and i'm sure a lot of it is their fault .


The reason I turned to religion during my time at University was I was lonely; I had friends but they didn't go out to parties/ travel near as much as I wanted. Actually, we never went to parties and other people did but I didn't because I had a 'paranoia' there'd be people I hated at the nightclub.
I couldn't do martial arts because people from University I didn't like may have come to my club; though they were training at their own club, if they were interested in other styles they would have come to my club. So I stopped going to the martial arts club I found after I left the University ones because I thought they'd be there.

I was 'happy' when I eventually found another martial arts club, I had good friends from University and I went to the Gurudwara for lunch and to be around people socially. Then suddenly my "friends" stop talking to me, one of them for no reason, another spent 100% of the time with his new girlfriend, a group of 4-5 went travelling without me and a group of 8 went to the theme park without me, 3 days after I suggested it.

What was the most frustrating is I found the Indians students quite selfish and inappropriate around women. More annoying is they let me down. Then there was a half Indian-half English Sikh girl who has strong social skills and is very popular, I asked her about Sikh and Hindu society but I found it frustrating as I was hinting to her that I was turning to religion for the social reason and I would have liked to have done things with her and her friends :/

My friends who let me down were Chinese,Taiwanese,Thai and Malaysian but i'm not happy this girl didn't take the hint. That and I used to really like African people but they too didn't include me (she was very good friends with them). So Oriental and African people,people of cultures I really admired, let me down.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

The reason I believe Sikhs don't feel happy being Indian come from the websites I referred to in my earlier posts, websites with 'normal' Sikhs.

How can you tell what the "majority" of Sikhs believe (solely from a couple websites), if one considers that most Sikhs in Punjab don't even have access to the internet, let alone the time to waste in making anti-Indian websites?

Surly if you believe Bhindranwale was right

I don't believe he was a "sant" as "Sikhiwiki" is describing him, yet I also don't believe he was a terrorist. I just believe he was a bit confused. Indira Gandhi, however, was a terorist.

...you must also believe Congress was bad; both of those things would mean you don't want to be Indian right?

Disliking a pseudo-secular Muslim-appeasing party like the INC or a radical Hindu-nationalist party like the VHP has nothing whatsoever to do with hating India as a whole. What a ridiculous statement! When people like that scumbag Rajiv Gandhi incited violence against Sikhs, what do you expect them to say, "we love you and your party"?

Anyway, we can see with N/S Korea,China/Taiwan and N.Ireland/Republic of Ireland , that similar countries can split

The question is, just who would benefit from Punjāb seceding from Bhārat?

And as I've stated before, I'm Gujarati Hindu but I have felt alienated by Indians as my course had 10% Indian students (12/120) who seemed to only like drinkers or Hindi speakers; I guess brown teetotallers are too 'uncool' for them

That's a side effect of kaliyuga. Ideally, you should have enough self-control not to be socially-pressured by others into drinking. If you feel alienated by Indians who only like drunkards, the perhaps it would be nice to stay clear of those individuals, having a drug dependency is never a good thing (especially with a depressant drug such as alcohol which, when drunk in excess, can lead to liver problems). Surely there must be some individuals in your class who value an individual's character over their "habits" (or lack thereof), no?
P.S. I don't see how this relates to religion, as I don't know of any religion which actively encourages alcohol abuse.

Was the west half of Punjab always a cesspool or only after it was partitioned?

Look at it this way: do you think that those Muslims (primarily Punjabi, very few Balochis and Pashtuns) who sought to split from India solely due to their hatred of "kafirs" (which the Qur'an refers to as sharru'l-bariyati, or the worst of creatures) would like to live with Sikhs (whom they classify as kafirs)? Apparently someone is unfamiliar with the highly-intolerant nature of Islam, written right into the Qur'an and Sunnah:
[youtube]3QBGYe36xD8[/youtube]
Part 4/4 - ABC's Islam Deception - Muhammad's Intolerance Towards Other Religions - YouTube

My grandparents were forcefully kicked off over 34 acres of land by Muslim mobs. I'm sure they wouldn't have left all of their property had it not have been for Muslim violence. Partition helped the Muslims the most (in part because they were the most vocal and most willing to resort to violence if their demands were not met). The Sikhs were given the worst deal, as even after British rule and the destruction of Mahārāja Ranjīt Singh's empire, Sikhs (Jatts, Khatris, etc.) still controlled almost half of the land in Punjab. However, the partition of the land was primarily based on population, so the Hindus got to keep 1/3 of the land in Punjab (i.e. Himāchal Pradesh, Haryāna, etc.), Muslims were given half of the land, and Sikhs were given 1/6th of the land (but were forced to agree in order to avoid incurring further-violence from Muslim groups). Let's assume that all of Punjab was made a separate country, then how could we be certain that the Muslim majority would seek to commit genocide against Sikhs?. After all, look at what the mujahid-scum are doing to the Kaśmīrī-paṇḍits (although, to be fair, the Indian government is also committing atrocities against Kaśmīrīs)? Apparently common sense really isn't so common.

 

[Poeticus]

It was not just Śrī Guru Gobind Singh Jī, but Bābā Dīp Singh, Guru Tegh Bahādur, Guru Arjan Dev Jī, the Choṭe Sāhibzāde, Bhāi Dayāl [Dyāla] Dās, Bhai Mati Dās, and others as well.
Guru Arjan Dev Jī's shaheedi under the orders of Jahangir is often forgotten by many, (even by many Sikhs) although it too is quite depressing.

I praise them! Thank you for the video. However, I hold the Ferocious Lion, Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh at a special place - I identify with his spirit the most. However, all of them be praised!

I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but the majority of Khālistānis I've met are illiterate paindus, usually from the diaspora (particularly Canada and the UK), who complain about Bhāratiya-"oppression" and use 1984 as an excuse to hate all Hindus. I don't know where ronki23 is getting his "statistics" from.

To be honest, Hindus in Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, Rajasthan, and one more state I keep forgetting....had no involvement in 1984. So, I don't understand why the hatred of every single Hindus by Khalistani Secessionists. Maybe it's political. Maybe not.

I'm pretty sure I told you that I was more of a syncreticist that just a "Hindu" or a "Sikh"...
I answered this one in the PM as well. I said I lived in a city in Hoshiarpur District, which is located in Punjab.
Uhh...the Himālaya-s are to the east of Punjab.
For the most part, yes. What's your point though?

My point is how do you, as a Punjabi, approach this matter when it comes to people synonymously stating Punjabi Sikhs want to secede...also, how do Punjabi Hindus fit into this picture? Just an ethno-cultural curiosity of mine since demographics and ethnography are very interesting to me. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I praise them! Thank you for the video. However, I hold the Ferocious Lion, Shri Mahatma Guru Gobind Singh at a special place - I identify with his spirit the most. However, all of them be praised!

At the same time, however, you have to consider that out of all the Sikhs that defended India, he probably did the most damage to Hindus, whereas his father, Guru Tegh Bahādur, risked his life in the defense of those Hindus who were to be force-converted by Aurangzeb...
Look at what Guru Gobind Singh said he did to the hill rAja-s in his Zafarnama letter to Aurangzeb:
منم کشته ام کوهیان بت پرست که و بت پرستند من بت شکست
Transliteration: manam kushte'am kohiAn but prast, ke o butt prastand man butt shikast
Translation:
"I have annihilated (manam kushte'am) the idol-worshipping (butt prast) mountain people (kohiAn) and I have (man) fractured/broke (shikast) the idols (butt) that they worship/idolize (ke o butt prastand)."
However, at the same time, he (Guru Gobind Singh Jī,) did write beautiful prayers:
[youtube]T1Uw2FHZawA[/youtube]
Message to God: Words of a Guru - Amazing Must Watch! - YouTube
[youtube]3C6-9OIJq0I[/youtube]
Chandi Di Vaar - Sikh Prayer - YouTube
Regarding the latter, I find it funny that most Sikhs don't realize that "Śrī Bhagauti" mentioned in at the beginning of the daily ardās is just the Punjabi equivalent of "Devī Bhagavatī", which makes sense, because the Chaṇḍi di-Vār prayer from the Dasam Granth (from which the beginning of the ardās is taken), is pretty much a Sikh retelling of the Mārkaṇḍeya-purāṇam.

To be honest, Hindus in Gujarat, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, Rajasthan, and one more state I keep forgetting....had no involvement in 1984. So, I don't understand why the hatred of every single Hindus by Khalistani Secessionists. Maybe it's political. Maybe not.

It is political. That's the point...

My point is how do you, as a Punjabi, approach this matter when it comes to people synonymously stating Punjabi Sikhs want to secede...also, how do Punjabi Hindus fit into this picture? Just an ethno-cultural curiosity of mine since demographics and ethnography are very interesting to me. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

I think you mean "unanimously," and I think that people here are just over-exaggeratimg. If Punjab secedes, then it would be a lose-lose for both groups.

 

[Poeticus]

At the same time, however, you have to consider that out of all the Sikhs that defended India, he probably did the most damage to Hindus, whereas his father, Guru Tegh Bahādur, risked his life in the defense of those Hindus who were to be force-converted by Aurangzeb...
Look at what Guru Gobind Singh said he did to the hill rAja-s in his Zafarnama letter to Aurangzeb:
منم کشته ام کوهیان بت پرست که و بت پرستند من بت شکست
Transliteration: manam kushte'am kohiAn but prast, ke o butt prastand man butt shikast
Translation:
"I have annihilated (manam kushte'am) the idol-worshipping (butt prast) mountain people (kohiAn) and I have (man) fractured/broke (shikast) the idols (butt) that they worship/idolize (ke o butt prastand)."
However, at the same time, he (Guru Gobind Singh Jī,) did write beautiful prayers:
[youtube]T1Uw2FHZawA[/youtube]
Message to God: Words of a Guru - Amazing Must Watch! - YouTube
[youtube]3C6-9OIJq0I[/youtube]
Chandi Di Vaar - Sikh Prayer - YouTube
Regarding the latter, I find it funny that most Sikhs don't realize that "Śrī Bhagauti" mentioned in at the beginning of the daily ardās is just the Punjabi equivalent of "Devī Bhagavatī", which makes sense, because the Chaṇḍi di-Vār prayer from the Dasam Granth (from which the beginning of the ardās is taken), is pretty much a Sikh retelling of the Mārkaṇḍeya-purāṇam.

No, I did not know about that letter. It makes sense, though, because the Hill Rajas were the ones that deserted him when he asked for an alliance against the Muslims, correct? And, I am sure there was some appropriation that occurred, so it's very possible that such a retelling occurred. Seems probable to me.

It is political. That's the point...

I think you mean "unanimously," and I think that people here are just over-exaggeratimg. If Punjab secedes, then it would be a lose-lose for both groups.

Yeah, I meant unanimously, my b. It just doesn't seem practical for Punjabi Sikhs to secede "Sikh Punjab" from India. 1) India can't go through another partition, and 2) It would be an unnecessary bloodbath.

 

[ronki23]

How can you tell what the "majority" of Sikhs believe (solely from a couple websites), if one considers that most Sikhs in Punjab don't even have access to the internet, let alone the time to waste in making anti-Indian websites?



I don't believe he was a "sant" as "Sikhiwiki" is describing him, yet I also don't believe he was a terrorist. I just believe he was a bit confused. Indira Gandhi, however, was a terorist.



Disliking a pseudo-secular Muslim-appeasing party like the INC or a radical Hindu-nationalist party like the VHP has nothing whatsoever to do with hating India as a whole. What a ridiculous statement! When people like that scumbag Rajiv Gandhi incited violence against Sikhs, what do you expect them to say, "we love you and your party"?



The question is, just who would benefit from Punjāb seceding from Bhārat?



That's a side effect of kaliyuga. Ideally, you should have enough self-control not to be socially-pressured by others into drinking. If you feel alienated by Indians who only like drunkards, the perhaps it would be nice to stay clear of those individuals, having a drug dependency is never a good thing (especially with a depressant drug such as alcohol which, when drunk in excess, can lead to liver problems). Surely there must be some individuals in your class who value an individual's character over their "habits" (or lack thereof), no?
P.S. I don't see how this relates to religion, as I don't know of any religion which actively encourages alcohol abuse.



Look at it this way: do you think that those Muslims (primarily Punjabi, very few Balochis and Pashtuns) who sought to split from India solely due to their hatred of "kafirs" (which the Qur'an refers to as sharru'l-bariyati, or the worst of creatures) would like to live with Sikhs (whom they classify as kafirs)? Apparently someone is unfamiliar with the highly-intolerant nature of Islam, written right into the Qur'an and Sunnah:
[youtube]3QBGYe36xD8[/youtube]
Part 4/4 - ABC's Islam Deception - Muhammad's Intolerance Towards Other Religions - YouTube

My grandparents were forcefully kicked off over 34 acres of land by Muslim mobs. I'm sure they wouldn't have left all of their property had it not have been for Muslim violence. Partition helped the Muslims the most (in part because they were the most vocal and most willing to resort to violence if their demands were not met). The Sikhs were given the worst deal, as even after British rule and the destruction of Mahārāja Ranjīt Singh's empire, Sikhs (Jatts, Khatris, etc.) still controlled almost half of the land in Punjab. However, the partition of the land was primarily based on land, so the Hindus got to keep 1/3 of the land in Punjab (i.e. Himāchal Pradesh, Haryāna, etc.), Muslims were given half of the land, and Sikhs were given 1/6th of the land (but were forced to agree in order to avoid incurring further-violence from Muslim groups). Let's assume that all of Punjab was made a separate country, then how could we be certain that the Muslim majority would seek to commit genocide against Sikhs?. After all, look at what the mujahid-scum are doing to the Kaśmīrī-paṇḍits (although, to be fair, the Indian government is also committing atrocities against Kaśmīrīs)? Apparently common sense really isn't so common.

Surely if Sikhs hate Congress and the Gandhi-Nehru family, that means they must also hate Manmohan Singh and Mahatma Gandhi; after all, both are of that party?

Though I have had no replies regarding Bhindranwale's threat to kill 5000 Hindus and no replies 'justifying' his hiding in the Temple in the first place.

Off topic

And with regarding those 12 (approx) Indians, as stated, not all of them drink but as I am not 'Indian enough' for them due to not liking cricket or not speaking Hindi, I have been let down by them. It seems the alcohol 'knocks down' the boundaries between them and other nationalities though they let me down several times before even knowing this (in particular, they chase after 1 or 2 specific non-Indian girls and then make excuses not to come to a party [either they're too drunk at their own house with the girls or because she's coming they won't come]).
What I find selfish is they say they'll let me know when they will go out and never did.

So forgive me for being bitter about my 'countrymen' and 'friends'.
Though the Chinese (~9) ,Thai (1), Malaysian (1), and Taiwanese (1) that I did things with all year just suddenly stopped talking to me a full month before we finished our degree as classes finished. I then find several groups go travelling without me (even though I suggest). One unrelated one (from my past) removes me from facebook. It seems the common denominator between Indians and the other Asians is not only the Dharmic religions, but selfishness too. It seems Asians hate me- with the East Asians there's no reason behind it.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Surely if Sikhs hate Congress and the Gandhi-Nehru family, that means they must also hate Manmohan Singh and Mahatma Gandhi; after all, both are of that party?

So what? If an individual hates another, then why is that any of my business?

Though I have had no replies regarding Bhindranwale's threat to kill 5000 Hindus and no replies 'justifying' his hiding in the Temple in the first place.

What is there to defend? He was a human who made mistakes, get over it and stop making a big deal out of nothing. In my opinion he shouldn't have been murdered and he his statements certainly shouldn't be quote-mined and used to attack Sikhs (by making it seem that most Sikhs are Khalistanis and most Khalistanis are terrorists).

And with regarding those 12 (approx) Indians, as stated, not all of them drink but as I am not 'Indian enough' for them due to not liking cricket or not speaking Hindi, I have been let down by them.

I don't like playing cricket either, and I'm Indian (well, technically, Pakistani), so? Seriously, if your "friends" are really this superficial, then you really don't need to be friends with them in the first place. Out of the 120 students, there's bound to be at least one individual who wants to be your friend, I don't personally think it matters what race they are...

It seems the alcohol 'knocks down' the boundaries between them and other nationalities though they let me down several times before even knowing this (in particular, they chase after 1 or 2 specific non-Indian girls and then make excuses not to come to a party [either they're too drunk at their own house with the girls or because she's coming they won't come]).

These people sound like drunk perverts. Like I said, there's really no need to be friends with them, sheesh. At the same time, I don't see how you can generalize by assuming all Indians like that.

What I find selfish is they say they'll let me know when they will go out and never did.

That's likely for the better. These people seem like the type which would be more inclined to do something immature and/or idiotic. At least you wouldn't need to bear the repercussions for their actions.

Though the Chinese (~9) ,Thai (1), Malaysian (1), and Taiwanese (1) that I did things with all year just suddenly stopped talking to me a full month before we finished our degree as classes finished. I then find several groups go travelling without me (even though I suggest). One unrelated one (from my past) removes me from facebook. It seems the common denominator between Indians and the other Asians is not only the Dharmic religions, but selfishness too. It seems Asians hate me- with the East Asians there's no reason behind it.

If you were abused and/or treated poorly by people who happened to be from Asia, then I feel bad for you. However, your tendency to generalize is a bit agitating, and I really don't see the need for you to bring religion into this...

 

[ronki23]

So what? If an individual hates another, then why is that any of my business?


What is there to defend? He was a human who made mistakes, get over it and stop making a big deal out of nothing. In my opinion he shouldn't have been murdered and he his statements certainly shouldn't be quote-mined and used to attack Sikhs (by making it seem that most Sikhs are Khalistanis and most Khalistanis are terrorists).



I don't like playing cricket either, and I'm Indian (well, technically, Pakistani), so? Seriously, if your "friends" are really this superficial, then you really don't need to be friends with them in the first place. Out of the 120 students, there's bound to be at least one individual who wants to be your friend, I don't personally think it matters what race they are...


These people sound like drunk perverts. Like I said, there's really no need to be friends with them, sheesh. At the same time, I don't see how you can generalize by assuming all Indians like that.


That's likely for the better. These people seem like the type which would be more inclined to do something immature and/or idiotic. At least you wouldn't need to bear the repercussions for their actions.



If you were abused and/or treated poorly by people who happened to be from Asia, then I feel bad for you. However, your tendency to generalize is a bit agitating, and I really don't see the need for you to bring religion into this...

With regards to the Congress party analogy, Manmohan Singh and Gandhi did amazing things for India. Gandhi got independence for India through non-violent protest while Manmohan Singh cut much of the bureaucracy and red-tape in India and emphasized FDI in India; starting the boom in India. Not all of Congress in India is bad.

With regards to those on my course, yes i'm afraid calling them drunk perverts is the right word for one of them at least. He won't do anything without one European girl (even though they aren't dating) and though they deny they're dating, this girl followed him upstairs at a house party. Another is a 'follower' who follows this guy around/ won't go out if either this guy or the girl don't go out. This follower said something quite petty to this other Indian girl about me 'Oh, he hasn't even BEEN to India'. Actually, these 2, plus 2 others go around 'touching' other girls e.g. playing with their hair, flirting with them,trying to refer to the girls' native name as if they know them,etc.- many of the girls don't like this. The girl that is primarily hounded doesn't seem to fuss as much but other girls don't like it;one Malaysian girl says all one guy does is try flirt with her. And as stated, they only hang out with other Indians or females of another ethnicity.

 

[Treks]

Jaskaran

Your knowledge about the history of Punjab and relationship between Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs is apparently quite vast.

 

[nameless]

Gandhi got independence for India through non-violent protest

We dont have any strong evidences for this, of course gandhi was leader of india when she gained independence, but that does not mean he is the one who did that. After the world war II british became bankrupt, and managing their colonies was difficult for them. You should not also forget what happened in jalianwala bagh , the same british people got their heart melted by gandhi's non-violent protest?

while Manmohan Singh cut much of the bureaucracy and red-tape in India and emphasized FDI in India; starting the boom in India.

what about all those scams?

Not all of Congress in India is bad.

Congress was bad even from its beginning, it was formed for the friendship between indian elite classes and the britishers.

 

[ronki23]

We dont have any strong evidences for this, of course gandhi was leader of india when she gained independence, but that does not mean he is the one who did that. After the world war II british became bankrupt, and managing their colonies was difficult for them. You should not also forget what happened in jalianwala bagh , the same british people got their heart melted by gandhi's non-violent protest?
what about all those scams?

Congress was bad even from its beginning, it was formed for the friendship between indian elite classes and the britishers.

Firstly, I have read this on Search Sikhism

A Warrior?
[FONT=&quot]When Rama was exiled, he shot a king named [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Bali[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from behind and killed him. What a coward? What kind of bravery is that? Why would God attack someone from behind? This was a complete betrayal by Rama in the battle field. When Rama started fighting with Ravana to get his wife back his brother Lacchman passed out. He started crying and told Hanuman (a monkey God) that if his brother dies he will die with him by committing suicide. The truth is NO brave man ever cries in the battle field. This shows that Rama lost himself in the battle field which shows weakness of mind and heart. According to Hindu historians, Rama was helped by all the gods and goddesses in the battlefield. What kind of a God needs help in the battlefield? Skipping ahead, Rama wins the battle, gets his wife back and returns to his kingdom. Someone who attacks from behind, cries in the battle field, tries to commit suicide can never be called a brave warrior. Only weak minded cowards have these characteristics.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A Great King?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the kingdom of Rama practice of Sati, burning of the widow with her dead husband was widely accepted. Sacrifice of horse, cow and even human being was considered a religious ritual. Lower caste people and women were looked upon as inferior. A Shudra named Shambhook (a lower caste) was killed by Rama just because he started worshipping God through meditation. This proves that Rama failed to be a true king because he had no understanding of fair justice. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A Good Husband?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]According to Balmick Ramayana, One day Rama listened to a washer man saying that Rama's wife was kidnapped and stayed with a kidnapper for a year and therefore she became impure. On hearing this Rama quickly went back to his palace and kicked his wife Sita out of his kingdom while she was pregnant with his baby. Now let me ask you, is this what God does?? The answer is NO. This clearly proves that he was not a God rather just a simple human being. He fought for his wife for a year and then suddenly listening to some washer man he kicked her out when she was pregnant. He didn't even trust his wife. Sita had to stay in jungles and live a poor life while her husband stayed in palaces enjoying his life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even Ravana was better than Rama. When Ravana kidnapped Sita, he kept her in a separate palace. There exists no account of Ravana trying to disrespect Sita in any way. He always persuaded her to marry him but other than that she was not tortured or raped. On the other hand, Rama and his brother Lachman not only lied to Ravana’s sister Sroopnekha but also disrespected her by cutting off her nose. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A coward, liar and a deceitful person like Rama who was not even a good king, a brave warrior and a good husband cannot be given the status of an Avatar. Someone like him does not even deserve to be praised by a regular human being and RSS is trying to mislead Sikhs into thinking that he is praised by our Guru Sahibans in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Rama preached no new or unique message to humanity and wrote no religious book. Instead he followed Brahmins in jungles begging from house to house and followed everything that was being practiced back then. His contribution to humanity and society is of no value. It is clear from this discussion that God’s name ‘Raam’ is very different from hindu lord Rama. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Many hindus compare Guru Gobind Singh Ji with Rama but it is only foolish to do such thing. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a great warrior who always faced the enemy and never attacked from behind. His message inspired thousands of weak and defenseless people to become fearless warriors. He started the freedom movement that ended tyrant rules of Mughals, Pathans and British. He gave equal rights to women and embraced everyone regardless of caste. He renounced all of the old rituals and gave new way of life to people. He started a new nation that would uphold the Dharma, and fight for truth and justice. Guru Gobind Singh Ji fought for humanity and truth. He sacrificed His father, mother and four sons but never shed a single drop of tear. Instead, He celebrated their martyrdom. Hindu lord Rama is no where near the greatest of all Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Rama failed to be a loyal and a faithful husband, a wise king who would treat everyone equally, and a true warrior. He possessed no quality that can be compared to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Ji embraced everyone whereas Rama abandoned his own wife then how do people expect that he will embrace them? Only Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the greatest. Rama, Krishna and all others seek dust of feet of Guru Ji.

[/FONT]

Jalianwala Bagh was down to one individual: Reginald Dyer. And the non-violent protest worked through the 'Quit India' movement; Gandhi's fasting and his speeches motivated the Indians and the masses did all the 'hard' work e.g. non co-operation. Of course you had the likes of Vallabhai Patel helping

And every democracy has scans and corruption; Manmohan Singh is an economist more than a politician.

If a Sikh hates all of Congress, something I am seeing on other forums as well as this forum, it seems he hates the whole of India as there would be no 'India' without congress. Why?

 

[ronki23]

bump

I hear Sikhs also believe in Kali Yuga?

Kali Yuga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kalyug

 

[Treks]

What do you think Kal Yug is?

Does it match what has been written by poster Narayanjot at the Sikh Philosophy link you provided?

 

[ronki23]

What do you think Kal Yug is?

Does it match what has been written by poster Narayanjot at the Sikh Philosophy link you provided?

I believe in Kali Yug in that politicians will be mediocre at best. Winston Churchill predicted this about India,

"Power will go to the hands of ras*cals, rogues, free*boot*ers; all Indian lead*ers will be of low cal*i*ber and men of straw. They will have sweet tongues and silly hearts. They will fight amongst them*selves for power and India will be lost in polit*i*cal squabbles. A day would come when even air and water would be taxed in India."

In addition to this, religion will be either ridiculed or manipulated and there will be no more respect for elders. Those who choose to refrain from vices will have them thrust upon them and will be ridiculed for their abstinence.

Kali Yug is the age of ignorance. If Sikhism is independent, why do they too refer to this as Kali Yug? Unless they mean it metaphorically as opposed to the Hindu version

 

[Treks]

Read the Sikh Philosophy link you provided and you'll have your answer.

Do you think Kal Yug is actually a series of time-bound phases of 4.something million years? If so, Sikh certainly doesn't espouse this belief.

You could say that the Sikh perspective is that all (perceived) Yugs are Kal Yug where people forget Naam.

 

[ronki23]

that link doesn't provide or analyse these verses from the wikipedia:

ab kaloo aaeiou rae Now, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga has come. eik naam bovahu bovahu || Plant the Naam, the Name of the One Lord. an rooth naahee naahee || It is not the season to plant other seeds. math bharam bhoolahu bhoolahu || Do not wander lost in doubt and delusion

I'm trying to tell my delusional Indian family and friends that Sikhs are not a branch of Hinduism created to purge Islam from India. Because that's the way they're behaving- completely oblivious to the Islamic influence in Sikhism and going around saying Sikhs are happy in India/literally meaning Vishnu and Shiva

 

[Treks]

Your quest is admirable and I wish you the best of luck because it's going to take a lot of luck.

The link for Sikh Philosophy Network, and Narayanjot's post in particular, explains in excrutiating detail what Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches with regard to Kal Yug.

Wikipedia is not a very good source. That particular part of the article doesn't even have a reference! Some random person could have typed it in.

Ask you family to explain this tuk from a shabad on ang 96:
Ik gẖaṛī na milṯe ṯā kalijug hoṯā.
When I could not be with You for just one moment, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga dawned for me.

If people would just let go of complex mythologies and stories and focus on the now then the Gurbani might make more sense to them.

Alternatively they can provide some evidence of how they know any other type of "age" existed 4.something million years ago etcetcetc...

 

[ronki23]

Your quest is admirable and I wish you the best of luck because it's going to take a lot of luck.

The link for Sikh Philosophy Network, and Narayanjot's post in particular, explains in excrutiating detail what Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches with regard to Kal Yug.

Wikipedia is not a very good source. That particular part of the article doesn't even have a reference! Some random person could have typed it in.

Ask you family to explain this tuk from a shabad on ang 96:
Ik gẖaṛī na milṯe ṯā kalijug hoṯā.
When I could not be with You for just one moment, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga dawned for me.

If people would just let go of complex mythologies and stories and focus on the now then the Gurbani might make more sense to them.

Alternatively they can provide some evidence of how they know any other type of "age" existed 4.something million years ago etcetcetc...

Wikipedia says Kali Yug lasts 432,000 years, Dvapara 864,000 years, Treta yuga
12.96 million years and Satya 1.78 million

Of course from a scientific standpoint Earth is just over 1 billion years old and the Sun 4.5 billion. So these ages are possible. Perhaps it is not necessarily about the specifics e.g men living over 4000 years old or Kingdoms existing during the first 2 Yugas but about how society degrades and the end of Kali Yug means the end of the Earth and each cycle is the creation and destruction of planets and civilisations.

I, and I'm assuming Sikhism have learned to take Hindu stories as Metaphors. The only thing stopping me become a fully-fledged Sikh is I respect and admire Hinduism as I have found it is more metaphorical and open to interpretation than other religions.

Though you can also see I'm not fond of India but that's another story