Confused Satanists

[Adramelek]

In the old days of the Church of Satan, LaVey was much more tolerant of those who chose to accept Satan or the Dark One as a very real Entity. In the "Satanic Bible" he even states that if a Satanist choses to be "Satan fearing" or choses Satan as their "personal savior" that he saw nothing wrong with it. I think it can be found in the chapter the Book of Lucifer.

It was only after the crisis of 1975 when the majority of the Priesthood of Mendes, most of whom did accept Satan as a ver real Form, left the CoS in protest against what they felt that LaVey was selling out the Priesthood, that he took a more hard line stance against "belief" in Satan, thus, turning the Church into a more atheistic organization.

 

[Orias]

Ahhh I see. I have read that section and that is correct. But still, why do people get so uptight about things? Athiest or not a belief in Satan is still being Satanic. As I do value Him as my savior and all, some people just irritate me when they say that I know nothing of Satanism. Why reject somthing that we all have in common? If you don't believe that Satan isn't in physical form Theistics will bash you and tell you that are you are not true. I do believe he is mentally there and I do speak with Him all the time. Through my counscious He guides. I do believe that He is in all of us. When it comes to reality, the Theistic people seem to be lost in their own fantasy. Not trying to insult anyone, but I do value Him as much as anyone else. I don't see why we can't just all get along and stay united. If all these branches appear it will be like another Christian church and everything will look like a contradiction to another. I would hate for that to happen.

 

[Erebus]

I do not discriminate against Theistic Satanists. As you connect may you see that we all the same...different people just give different names to things that are really two different concepts but truly the same main idea. You are true Satanist if you connect with Him in anyway. By means of spiritual or simple notes to yourself. Can you really tell somone what they believe in is wrong or not true, if it is along the same guide lines you go by? But I understand that opinions differ from person to person and that not everyone will agree, because some people are stubborn. But if your not willing to understand what others say then what makes them think that they are Satanic? Look at life from all aspects and comprehension may come easier...

Hey there Orias, responding to both of your posts here

I think you may have read a little too deeply into my posts, I have no problem with LaVeyan Satanists at all, however, there is a large amount of vicious squabbling between various Satanic communities over petty things such as who can or can't consider themselves a Satanist (if you haven't encountered it yet I'm fairly sure you will soon enough). It's these individuals I'm criticising.

 

[Orias]

Hey there Orias, responding to both of your posts here

I think you may have read a little too deeply into my posts, I have no problem with LaVeyan Satanists at all, however, there is a large amount of vicious squabbling between various Satanic communities over petty things such as who can or can't consider themselves a Satanist (if you haven't encountered it yet I'm fairly sure you will soon enough). It's these individuals I'm criticising.

I understand what you say. I guess I did kind of mis-read what you said. I was speaking to all the people that say that though. And I already have encountered some of them haha. But we are the same at heart are we not? I would rather not argue with someone about this kind of stuff though. I prefer intelligent debates and rational understanding. But I think I get what you are saying...some people say you know nothing of Satanism when they haven't even begun to explore other peoples philosophical minds. I am here to learn, not to get in any arguments.

 

[Erebus]

But we are the same at heart are we not?

Absolutely
It's always struck me as a shame that the LHP community is so divided. Ultimately, the different groups are never going to agree with one another entirely, but it's these points of disagreement that provide the best learning material.

 

[Orias]

That is very true. The stubborn few will never acknowledge the value of the words that we share with each other though. The best learning is through debate and discussion and if your too busy taking what people say as insults you will never learn.

 

[raymkoak]

I see Atheistic Satanism and Theistic Satanism as two ends of a spectrum. The goal is the same: increasing one's autonomy and power. The difference is how much power one gives to the diabolical archetype. We are all Satanists. I guess it's similar to how people who worship many different gods can be Masons.

:candle:
Crys

I love this reply. You are SOOO right!

 

[Orias]

I love this reply. You are SOOO right!

So how does theism in Satanism invoke power?

 

[Mindmaster]

People like to be right, but lets think about what the 'net' of the situation is. Most theistic Satanists are doing self-deification work as well much in the way of the LaVeyists. I can see these people easily existing within the breadth of Church of Satan because they are in agreement on every major point and practice mostly. In fact, I really couldn't see a reason why they would be practically incompatible and atheist Satanist could be standing in the same room doing a ritual with them and the mentally of both would be the only different thing. One may see this as just a psychodrama, the other believes in the meaning of the words. At this point it's just artistic expression! Poetry vs Psychology.

Theism really is working magic through adoration as much as will, and it doesn't really change the mode of working just the heart in it. The mode of working that is best for you is the one that you naturally have affinity for it doesn't really matter what others think of it and certainly there is no quality comparison either. Both work... Remember, the theist is just as likely to be quoting Nietzsche and Ayn Rand as you are.

Honestly, I see theism more attractive to left brain types for this reason. Again, not a value judgment just my observation. Even the non-theists in Church of Satan are not so polar about beliefs (this polarity is honestly Peter Gilmore's slant, and is recent.) and there is strict atheism to outright agnosticism in that organization depending on who you talk to. Remember, they give anyone who pays a card. You're not going to be refused on this basis.

We all need to step back and get a little more perspective it's far easier to draw lines in the sand than to just accept a little variance and realize you are all on the same team.

 

[Orias]

People like to be right, but lets think about what the 'net' of the situation is. Most theistic Satanists are doing self-deification work as well much in the way of the LaVeyists. I can see these people easily existing within the breadth of Church of Satan because they are in agreement on every major point and practice mostly.

Well the Church of Satan was founded by Anton LaVey, that is why theists are separate from the non-theists. They are separate because of their disagreements.

In fact, I really couldn't see a reason why they would be practically incompatible and atheist Satanist could be standing in the same room doing a ritual with them and the mentally of both would be the only different thing. One may see this as just a psychodrama, the other believes in the meaning of the words. At this point it's just artistic expression! Poetry vs Psychology.

I can understand this part, the ritual is for the phsychodramtic effect and adds confidence to the belief. After all my demon did chose me by flame, and through ritual .

Theism really is working magic through adoration as much as will, and it doesn't really change the mode of working just the heart in it. The mode of working that is best for you is the one that you naturally have affinity for it doesn't really matter what others think of it and certainly there is no quality comparison either. Both work... Remember, the theist is just as likely to be quoting Nietzsche and Ayn Rand as you are.

I do agree with you there, the relationship between the mind and Satan or simply just the mind is greater than any other...in most cases.

Honestly, I see theism more attractive to left brain types for this reason. Again, not a value judgment just my observation. Even the non-theists in Church of Satan are not so polar about beliefs (this polarity is honestly Peter Gilmore's slant, and is recent.) and there is strict atheism to outright agnosticism in that organization depending on who you talk to. Remember, they give anyone who pays a card. You're not going to be refused on this basis.

I don't agree that theism has anything to do with left or right brain types, it has to do with irrational faith and supernatural belief. Again though, the CoS is founded on Athiestic belief, that is where the Setians became the Setians and Anton LaVey founded the CoS.

We all need to step back and get a little more perspective it's far easier to draw lines in the sand than to just accept a little variance and realize you are all on the same team.

It is of greater benefit to be of ambiguous perception, but you cannot achieve that by believing in the superphysical or dieties. A realization is that these dieties exist because of the mind...and the mind has responsible for what man posseses. Theism is acting as a puzzle piece and a clue to unlocking the enigma of existence. We just are, why question and give names to what is not? What you chose to call the great abstinence is irrelevent to our existence.

All living things die, the so called 'wounds to follow birth'. Death is part of life, there is no way around it, and from my view point theism is just a way to go around all of those so called things. To believe in life after death.

Say unto thine own heart "I am my own redeemer".

 

[Mindmaster]

It is of greater benefit to be of ambiguous perception, but you cannot achieve that by believing in the superphysical or dieties. A realization is that these dieties exist because of the mind...and the mind has responsible for what man posseses. Theism is acting as a puzzle piece and a clue to unlocking the enigma of existence. We just are, why question and give names to what is not? What you chose to call the great abstinence is irrelevent to our existence.

All living things die, the so called 'wounds to follow birth'. Death is part of life, there is no way around it, and from my view point theism is just a way to go around all of those so called things. To believe in life after death.

Say unto thine own heart "I am my own redeemer".

My only argument is there are lots of variances in these ideas. For example, I have a clear conception that Gods easily exist within the minds of those who believe in them, aka collective perception. All of those people will participate in that reality and actually gain the fruits of those beliefs, and any restrictions inherent in them. This is incompatible with a highly atheistic view but also incompatible with theism proper. This tends to be my own personal view, and a rather stark contrast to most of the views in these forums. I won't argue the nature of supernatural activities but I will argue that meditation, trance, states of heightened awareness, and hypnosis are proven by science. We barely understand the tiny microcosm that we can perceive let alone the macrocosm that exists outside of our cranium. All of these mystic processes are simply the bread and butter of supernatural experience. Those states are real even if the contents of the experience remain rather subjective. All magical processes have basis in these altered states whether they are reached through psychotropic drugs, rituals, fasting, sex, or pain.

If you ever have an trance experience while meditating on a mental image of Satan you will have a very REAL apparent direct contact with whatever you believe that to be. It will be real because it's in your own mind if nothing else. Just speaking from experience here. I don't make the mistake of believing that it's more than my part of the cosmic-collective archetype that I am accessing but humans are social creatures and we all have basis in the mists of the mind. Meditation is always a great tool to understand how you really perceive things. Someone who does this always has a very real perception of the prince of darkness.

Satan wouldn't call for any worship anyway so really when you get to the tacks it's not much different. Worship = orthodoxy = slavery = not a Satanist. The rules don't change even for the theistic Satanist. I'm not sure what the Luciferians are doing, but it's not Satanism.

 

[raymkoak]

People like to be right, but lets think about what the 'net' of the situation is. Most theistic Satanists are doing self-deification work as well much in the way of the LaVeyists. I can see these people easily existing within the breadth of Church of Satan because they are in agreement on every major point and practice mostly. In fact, I really couldn't see a reason why they would be practically incompatible and atheist Satanist could be standing in the same room doing a ritual with them and the mentally of both would be the only different thing. One may see this as just a psychodrama, the other believes in the meaning of the words. At this point it's just artistic expression! Poetry vs Psychology.

Theism really is working magic through adoration as much as will, and it doesn't really change the mode of working just the heart in it. The mode of working that is best for you is the one that you naturally have affinity for it doesn't really matter what others think of it and certainly there is no quality comparison either. Both work... Remember, the theist is just as likely to be quoting Nietzsche and Ayn Rand as you are.

Honestly, I see theism more attractive to left brain types for this reason. Again, not a value judgment just my observation. Even the non-theists in Church of Satan are not so polar about beliefs (this polarity is honestly Peter Gilmore's slant, and is recent.) and there is strict atheism to outright agnosticism in that organization depending on who you talk to. Remember, they give anyone who pays a card. You're not going to be refused on this basis.

We all need to step back and get a little more perspective it's far easier to draw lines in the sand than to just accept a little variance and realize you are all on the same team.

Let that be the most important part of the above paragraph : We are all on the SAME team!

 

[Orias]

Teams don't separate carnal from divine.

Hence we are different.

 

[The Enlightened One]

...with all of these branches and separations of Satanic belief it is becomming more and more like Christianity. AND IT IS A DISGRACE. Because we all value the same things don't we? So why try and take them from each other when we could learn and understand each other?

I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I would like to point out that by claiming LaVeyan Satanistism you are in turn becoming a subscriber to one of the branches.

 

[The Enlightened One]

Laveyans are just athiests misrepresenting satanic symbols. Just call your self a athiest, no use in putting up a front.

If they did that, then ALL non-theistic satanists would have to do the same...
Although LaVeyans are athiestic in belief, they have common viewpoints that not all athiests share. It's these beliefs that label them and set them aside from "general athiesm"(if there is such a term lol).

 

[Orias]

I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I would like to point out that by claiming LaVeyan Satanistism you are in turn becoming a subscriber to one of the branches.

It is only so if you generalize. Which is a stupid thing to do.

 

[The Enlightened One]

It is only so if you generalize. Which is a stupid thing to do.

LaVeyan Satanism is in itself generalized, otherwise it would just be _____. I look at it the same as I do race, although I might be a human like the rest of mankind I generalize myself as caucasian. Don't get me wrong though, I respect LaVeyans just as much as I do anybody else, but I can't see how somebody that labels their self can find generalizations to be discraceful to satanism. It's all about perception, and different branches perceive certain things in an entirely different fashion than another one.

 

[Orias]

That annoys me greatly, the argument I will forever uphold is Laveyans are not real Satanists im sorry.

Although I do respect "devil worshippers" and will always consider them to be the real Satanists. Not setians nor laveyans

I was a "devil worshipper" a couple years back but then as my knowledge and intelligence grew so did my beliefs. I evolved into Lvciferianism

And I say "devil-worshipper: because now for some reason all Satanists are really setians or worship aliens , Sumerian gods, enki etc.

I embraced Satan as a divine evil necessity. I do not believe in set nor enki

The term devil worshipper is asinine. Satan has nothing to do with the 'devil' and the term is commonly misinterperated as one who does things of a most malignant nature. That statement is of belligerant and asinine presumption. If you knew anything of LaVeyan philosophy and what it reprensents you would not say such a thing. A true Satanists see's no evil among things and values what is around them. We don't require dieties to tell us that some things are 'wrong' and 'right' when things just are, and things do just happen.

Baphomet, absorption of knowledge, a symbol in which Anton LaVey adopted when creating the CoS, the separation of Setians and LaVeyans. The pentegram is of five points, which follows the 5%er philosophy, which all LHP 'religions' set their guidelines on.

LaVeyan is Atheistic in belief, so when you say that Satanists seem to worship dieties or aliens is a fallacy on your part, and you admit to being a 'Lvsifarian' which in essence of itself, is the praise of dieties.

Lucifer and Satan are properly named so because of their different characteristics and traits.

You assumptions make you look bad on your part, and I could consider you to not be a real 'Lvsiferian' but I am not going to make such an assumption because we are of the same brotherhood, and I will treat you like a brother.

The post where you said LaVeyans are not real Satanists makes you look narrowminded, when LHP is of an open minded philosophy.

Notice, not one Satanists, Setian, Luciferian, or any LHP member in general is of a mass perception, for each individual holds a unique belief and philosophy that adheres to his/her life.

You say things speaking in gerneralized terms, which is very incorrect of you do so in the LHP, for we are all the same at heart, but very different in what is natural.

Sure we are of a 'malignant' nature, but all life is of destruction focused on building creation.

All dieites and creations came from within the mind, for where would such things as Gods and time be if man had not created it?

The mind inside is true divine, for we all create a universe unique to our beliefs.

I hope you are greater understanding now brother.

Ave Satanas!

 

[Orias]

LaVeyan Satanism is in itself generalized, otherwise it would just be _____. I look at it the same as I do race, although I might be a human like the rest of mankind I generalize myself as caucasian. Don't get me wrong though, I respect LaVeyans just as much as I do anybody else, but I can't see how somebody that labels their self can find generalizations to be discraceful to satanism. It's all about perception, and different branches perceive certain things in an entirely different fashion than another one.

Exactly, it is a lable, it means nothing. It is just a voice of a perception. You will find that I am very different from other LaVeyan Satanists. I just apply LaVeyan philosophy to my philosophy simply because I agree with everything Anton LaVey has said.

I just add on to it and specify more. If you only percieve branches, then you generalize, rather than an ambiguous perception where you see that we just are, what is natural.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Laveyans are just athiests misrepresenting satanic symbols. Just call your self a athiest, no use in putting up a front.

I'd have to say I agree with this. I used to consider myself a Laveyan Satanist myself, but then later realized it made no sense for me personally. Why call myself a "satanist" if I did not even believe in Satan? I don't understand why Lavey used the term "Satanism" to express his beliefs or ideals...even if the word was only used symbolically. Did he do this just to make people turn their heads and create a stir? Perhaps he could see certain fame and money to be gained out of such an endeavor. Whatever the case, I respect his beliefs and actually share much or rather most of his ideals even though I have a different view as far as what would be considered real "satanism". That's just my opinion though.