confUUsed

[lilithu]

I think the UU is supposed to be about exploring and developing your own personal path rather than have a pre-canned path spoon-fed to you (i.e. just passively sit back and be indoctrinated).

Agreed. In addition to the Third and Fourth principles that Storm cited, this is also the reason why we are non-creedal.

However, there are limits. I am free and even encouraged to explore and develop my personal path, but only to the extent that it doesn't impinge upon your personal path. That's why I say with freedom comes responsibility. We are encouraged to think for ourselves, and so we had better actually think. What some of us are reacting to in this thread is that the first part of the equation is often over-emphasized at the expense of the second part.

People outside of UU often criticize us as a "feel-good" religion. We've got our rose-colored glasses on and only see the nice things. I used to think that was what UU was. Now, I understand that while we affirm and promote the inherent worth of every person, it's not just "it's all good." With that comes the responsibility to create a just world in which every person can thrive to the best of her or his potential. Our Seven principles demand a lot of us if we take them seriously.

 

[YmirGF]

What puzzles me is how you feel confident to continue to criticize other traditions without really knowing what they're about. UU affirms that there is truth in the world's religions - ie, that there is something meaningful and worthwhile in traditions of various sources. That is not the same thing as saying that they're all the same.

GIven then I limit my criticism of "other" religions to Islam (mainly) and Scientology (which you also are somewhat outspoken about) and occaisonally take minor swipes at the Bahai's and UU's, I think your first statement borders on being propaganda. It is interesting that you say that "UU affirms that there is truth in the world's religions - ie, that there is something meaningful and worthwhile in traditions of various sources" and yet it is related to how those ideas integrate with the existing UU sentiments. Again, how is this not cherry picking? I am sure that if you combed the words of Pope John Paul II and Adolf Hitler, you could probably find points that you and they all agree on. So what?

Btw: It was Dawkins that conjectured about the "sameness" angle, not I. I don't think it would even occur to me to say that all the worlds religions were the same, lol. I did think he made an interesting point however and it simply reminded me of UU's.

Our Seven principles demand a lot of us if we take them seriously.

... and for the record... they are fine principles, imho.

 

[lilithu]

GIven then I limit my criticism of "other" religions to Islam (mainly) and Scientology (which you also are somewhat outspoken about) and occaisonally take minor swipes at the Bahai's and UU's, I think your first statement borders on being propaganda.

Criticism is fine, if you actually know what you're talking about. What I said is that in the case of UU, you don't know what you're talking about.

It is interesting that you say that "UU affirms that there is truth in the world's religions - ie, that there is something meaningful and worthwhile in traditions of various sources" and yet it is related to how those ideas integrate with the existing UU sentiments. Again, how is this not cherry picking? I am sure that if you combed the words of Pope John Paul II and Adolf Hitler, you could probably find points that you and they all agree on. So what?

Btw: It was Dawkins that conjectured about the "sameness" angle, not I. I don't think it would even occur to me to say that all the worlds religions were the same, lol. I did think he made an interesting point however and it simply reminded me of UU's.

If you quote Dawkins, I assume there is a reason for it. ie - that you agree with it. Otherwise, are you just in the habit of tossing in random quotes?

It would be cherry-picking if we recognized the "truths" in the various religions and failed to recognize the differences. You seem to think that just because the differences don't divide us that means we don't recognize them. When I sit next to an atheist UU in church, I know very well that he or she is an atheist, just as she or he knows very well that I am a theist. We are not ignoring that difference. We're just recognizing that we share something even deeper in common. UU is about recognizing worth and meaning in plurality, not reducing everything to the lowest common denominator.

 

[zenzero]

Friend YmirGF & Liluthu,
I admire your energies.
The same energy to which we are suppossed to be just aware off but goes into finding about each others knowledge on various religious thoughts.
Frankly speaking, differences will always remain till we see through our individual MIND's eyes.
Ofcourse am no one to suggest anything to anyone, leave alone intellectuals like you two except my sincerely appreciation of God's creation and in its awe when see people like you.
Love & rgds

 

[YmirGF]

Criticism is fine, if you actually know what you're talking about. What I said is that in the case of UU, you don't know what you're talking about.

Arrghhh. I have never claimed to know much about UU, Lilithu.

If you quote Dawkins, I assume there is a reason for it. ie - that you agree with it. Otherwise, are you just in the habit of tossing in random quotes?

I do agree with what he says but, as stated, his comments simply reminded me of the UU "we can believe whatever we want" misconception. By your own admission this is a rather popular misconception both inside and outside the UU camp. If people within UU congregations don't "get it" why should you sound mildly offended if someone outside the group has this view?

It would be cherry-picking if we recognized the "truths" in the various religions and failed to recognize the differences. You seem to think that just because the differences don't divide us that means we don't recognize them.

I didn't say that, those are your words. You do realize that by recognizing "truths" in a given religion you are neatly sidestepping their collective assertion that they alone are the "only" way, right. To my stunted thinking that is reducing their supposed validity.

A quick question: Do UU's believe in so-called revelation?

When I sit next to an atheist UU in church, I know very well that he or she is an atheist, just as she or he knows very well that I am a theist. We are not ignoring that difference. We're just recognizing that we share something even deeper in common. UU is about recognizing worth and meaning in plurality, not reducing everything to the lowest common denominator.

That does sound wonderful but I am curious why a group with such noble motives is not more popular than it is. Any ideas?

 

[lilithu]

I didn't say that, those are your words.

If you didn't mean to suggest that we only look at the commonalities and ignore the differences, then what exactly do you mean by "cherry-picking"?

You do realize that by recognizing "truths" in a given religion you are neatly sidestepping their collective assertion that they alone are the "only" way, right. To my stunted thinking that is reducing their supposed validity.

1. Since when does recognizing that there are truths in the world's religions mean that we believe that every claim made is true for everyone?

2. Collective assertion?

A quick question: Do UU's believe in so-called revelation?

Depends on what you mean by "revelation." I believe, as Emerson did, in continuous revelation. But not all UUs are comfortable with that language.

That does sound wonderful but I am curious why a group with such noble motives is not more popular than it is. Any ideas?

And how is this relevant to the argument at hand? Or are you conceding this point and onto another line of attack?

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Meditate on this:
We [humans] are blinded by our own *THOUGHTS*
No doubt the world is still fighting religious wars [terrorism] .
Who said, what, why, when are irrelevant as *None can step into the same river twice*.
None can bring out the same environment when those words were spoken, events taken places or the thoughts that went into some books.
Ofcourse there is peace after any *WAR* [natural laws]
Love & rgds

 

[cheddarsox]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply cheddar, but how exactly is this process NOT "cherry picking", if elements are chosen that adhere to a preformatted set of principles? That would almost seem to be the very definition.

Might be that we are talking past one another. I am familiar with syncretic pagan traditions where people mix pantheons and practices from various traditions, perhaps making a
Celtic style offering to an Egyptian diety, throwing some African drumming in with a Native American smudging, that sort of thing. That is what I think of when I think of cherry picking and UU does not do that. What they DO do is to say "lets take a look at this practice or teaching in this faith, and see what wisdom we can gain from it."

To me that is a bit different than mixing and matching teachings and practices, though to another, it may seem about the same.

UU is informed by other traditions, and uses the insight gained from them, but it does not use their deities and rituals to patch together a practice. It develops it's own ritual based on its own understandings.

That being said, it does occur that some UU congregations will sometimes have a service or experience in the style of another faith (often presented by a member of that other faith) in order for it's own followers to gain a better insight. So, they may have a Buddhist member share some practices of Buddhism, or a pagan member offer a pagan ritual, but in my experience I've not seen a UU fellowship say "hey, lets mimic Native Americans this week."

I hope that clears things up.

I'm enjoying this thread.

 

[lilithu]

I am familiar with syncretic pagan traditions where people mix pantheons and practices from various traditions, perhaps making a
Celtic style offering to an Egyptian diety, throwing some African drumming in with a Native American smudging, that sort of thing. That is what I think of when I think of cherry picking and UU does not do that. What they DO do is to say "lets take a look at this practice or teaching in this faith, and see what wisdom we can gain from it."

To me that is a bit different than mixing and matching teachings and practices, though to another, it may seem about the same.

UU is informed by other traditions, and uses the insight gained from them, but it does not use their deities and rituals to patch together a practice. It develops it's own ritual based on its own understandings.

Ha, you should see my house! I have Buddhist buddhas and bodhisattvas mixed with Hindu devas mixed with Hopi and Navajo kachina dolls mixed with Zuni fetishes, with Christian paraphenalia thrown in for good measure.

Granted, I'm just one UU, not UU itself. But I know other UUs who are similar. And my spiritual practice is my own, but certainly adapted from what I've learned from other traditions.

Of course this all begs the question of cultural misappropriation and where one crosses the line, but that's a conversation I'd rather have without the input of nonUUs.

 

[YmirGF]

If you didn't mean to suggest that we only look at the commonalities and ignore the differences, then what exactly do you mean by "cherry-picking"?

*sigh* Though the term is normally taken to be a negative thing, it can also be used in a positive sense. In this instance, you are speaking of "truths" so it does suggest UU's consider certain elements in various religions to be "truthful". By default that also suggests that UU's believe that the various religions they are supportive of also contain things that are untrue. The bottom line is that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with cherry picking, but I get the distinct impression from you that you think there is.

1. Since when does recognizing that there are truths in the world's religions mean that we believe that every claim made is true for everyone?

It doesn't, it just means that you are picking and choosing to support that which directly supports your own positions. In effect........ cherry picking. (It's not a bad thing, for pity sakes... *sigh* ...but it IS exactly what you are doing. Thanks so much for admitting it.

2. Collective assertion?

Each religion claims to be the "only" way, so that is their "collective assertion". It is collective, because that is the general opinion common to virtually all religions. It is an assertion because they haven't a hope in Hades of actually proving their claims. I thought it was a fair thing to say, but perhaps I am just being silly.

Depends on what you mean by "revelation." I believe, as Emerson did, in continuous revelation. But not all UUs are comfortable with that language.

Is it true to say then that the UU church is officially non-committal regarding the authenticity of The Bible, Noble Qur'an, Baha'i Scriptures and other "sacred" texts?

And how is this relevant to the argument at hand? Or are you conceding this point and onto another line of attack?

There is no point TO concede, Lilithu, by me, at least. I was merely stating that the ideals sound nice although I am amused why you think my comments and questions are part of some larger attack.

To be honest, I don't see anything especially wrong with the UU church. It seems harmless enough. I am just curious what a very smart lady has to say about her own church. The ideals sound wonderful -- so -- why isn't it more popular? Is it some failure on the part of the church for not getting its message out? Given that the UU fellowship accepts virtually any viewpoints as long as they agree with the main principles one would expect people to be joining in droves? That's all I am saying. I am just curious. Given your reaction – perhaps that is part of the reason. :run:

 

[lilithu]

I am just curious what a very smart lady has to say about her own church. The ideals sound wonderful -- so -- why isn't it more popular? Is it some failure on the part of the church for not getting its message out? Given that the UU fellowship accepts virtually any viewpoints as long as they agree with the main principles one would expect people to be joining in droves? That's all I am saying. I am just curious. Given your reaction – perhaps that is part of the reason. :run:

If only you really would :run:.

My reaction is based largely on my past interactions with you, knowing that your "questions" are not motivated by open curiosity but rather condescending self-satisfaction. You have some "mystical" epiphany some time ago and now think that you have all the answers and don't need a religious tradition, and feel superior to those who do. That would still be fine YmirGF, if you didn't feel entitled to subject the rest of us to your "wisdom."

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
This is exactly how the MIND works.
None is superior as BEINGS to another.
All are equal except for the roles they play,
it is the mind that says "THE tiger is superior to the deer*
But also see the same tiger getting afraid of confront a hyena.
Mindlessness is required to take the journey inwards.
To know the SELF.
Light is always HERE all that is needed is for us to open up.
A small window for light to enter.
Love & rgds

 

[applewuud]

It is not the liberal/conservative issue I had problems with as much as the lack of...substance. Many people have the "not all who wander are lost" bumper sticker, and I agree...but sometimes the wanderers ARE lost. From the principles, I was led to believe that we are to encourage one another in responsible search for truth, that is what I am hungry for, a challenging and encouraging community. I know those exist, I've been graced to be part of some.

"Anything you want" is a very weak doctrine to hang anyone's hat on, and as a longtime UU I find it a sloppy excuse for a theology. I agree with your criticism. A lack of coherent direction is the Achille's heel of Unitarian-Universalism.

But time and time again, in the better writings and sermons and speeches of Unitarian Universalism, you can hear people argue against the "anything" position. That's why the Principle is "a free and responsible search". Freedom is there to allow us to search for and constantly improve our ideas of the truth as well as we can perceive them, without restricting us to old dogmas. It doesn't mean we're free from the discipline of testing our beliefs against reality, or being exposed to the ideas of others. We have a responsibility to look for the best, the truest, and the highest, unfettered by repression, but compelled by love and trust to do something, not just revel in "none of the above".

Unfortunately, instead of holding up a vision of a new, liberating theology, some UU congregations are refuges for liberals who have had bad experiences with religions in their past. They're at a stage in their journey that's more about rejecting beliefs that were forced upon them in their earlier life, than being open to building a new belief with others. Sorry about that.

Why don't you dig down into the resources that are available, then go back to that congregation and try to get a group of people together to study and discuss these things? You might be able to transform it, or at least be able to get a little support while you go your own way. Why surrender? Sounds like they need you, and so do the like-minded people who can't find a fulfilling church or fellowship in that area. Every good church was built by people who didn't like what they found, and rolled up their sleeves. It's a pain in the ***, and sometimes you have to walk away or limit your involvement, but maybe you have more allies than you realize. Maybe you should start your own UCC church! Almost every UU church in the East split off from a Congregational church...don't see any reason why it can't go the other way...

By the way, your experience where a minister challenged the "whatever we want" idea, is an example of how professional ministers bring important ideas that laypeople may not be as ready to deliver. An educated laity is important to having a healthy congregation, but in a time when most people have to work their tails off just to pay the mortgage, who has the time to get that education and experience? (But that's the other thread...)

 

[cheddarsox]

Why don't you dig down into the resources that are available, then go back to that congregation and try to get a group of people together to study and discuss these things? You might be able to transform it, or at least be able to get a little support while you go your own way. Why surrender? Sounds like they need you, and so do the like-minded people who can't find a fulfilling church or fellowship in that area. Every good church was built by people who didn't like what they found, and rolled up their sleeves. It's a pain in the ***, and sometimes you have to walk away or limit your involvement, but maybe you have more allies than you realize. Maybe you should start your own UCC church! Almost every UU church in the East split off from a Congregational church...don't see any reason why it can't go the other way...

By the way, your experience where a minister challenged the "whatever we want" idea, is an example of how professional ministers bring important ideas that laypeople may not be as ready to deliver. An educated laity is important to having a healthy congregation, but in a time when most people have to work their tails off just to pay the mortgage, who has the time to get that education and experience? (But that's the other thread...)

Can I vent just a wee bit?

I did as you suggested. I was involved in that congregation, heavily involved and invested for seven years. I led groups, participated in groups, chaired committees, served on committees, taught youth and adult classes, and a whole lot of roll up the sleeves grunt work.

The church was going through many significant changes during those years, lots of growing pains. When they called the current minister, there was a huge sigh of relief and a "we're lucky to get them, and we just need to be supportive" attitude.

The congregation handed over very much of it's power and identity to the minister, who is very talented, but even so, not a healthy situation.

I contacted UCC, trying to find out how to get a congregation started. It is more than I am able to take on, alone, right now. But I haven't tabled the idea forever.

I continued my own spirituality group for a couple years, but ran out of money, steam, etc.

I do think they need people like me, but the minister is not so happy with people who say "I think we need to take a look at this" and people want to keep the minister happy...so mostly, they deal with the status quo and say "it's not so bad".

For lots of reasons, I won't go into detail here.

I am really sad that I couldn't find a way to make it work, but I was burned out on trying to keep the faith amid the cheers of "go minister go!". I do not hate the minister, but I hate the way the church has rolled over and played "fix us", rather than allowed itself to be inspired, challenged, etc.

I hear I'm not the only one who feels this way, that there are similar grumblings from many who chose to remain as well...but no one wants to say anything...or confront anyone, because..well, that's not UU, and they see what happens when someone does bring an issue up or dares to suggest that maybe the church needs to be not so much about that minister.

I thought maybe it was just me, that something bent my nose out of joint and I needed some time away to get my perspective back, but from what I hear from those still involved and those who have left since I did...it's the same story over and over again.

I guess I need to figure out if I am UU...I mean, there is always the possibility of starting a new UU "home" church in the area...or study group. or whatever.

My options in that congregation are limited as I've been labeled a "problem" person, and if I come back, I will be closely watched and my doings monitored. They say it's very important during this "transition" period that we don't let troublemakers upset the forward thrust of the community. It appears that anyone who doesn't say "Hey, that's GREAT!" is a troublemaker.

Sometimes an educated laity brings more with them than inspiration.

 

[YmirGF]

If only you really would :run:.

I know I can be a teeny bit annoying, Lilithu, given that I will be around in one form or another for a very long time, we really should try harder to get along.

My reaction is based largely on my past interactions with you, knowing that your "questions" are not motivated by open curiosity but rather condescending self-satisfaction.

That is plain rude, Lilithu. How dare you presuppose to know my motivations and what I am thinking.

You have some "mystical" epiphany some time ago

Actually, it is a continuous, ongoing experience, Lilithu.

and now think that you have all the answers and don't need a religious tradition, and feel superior to those who do.

First off, I am not superior to others. *shakes head* *sighs* Secondly, I certainly do NOT claim to have all the answers, in fact of all the posters on RF, I usually add, "I could be wrong" to the end of my posts. So, I am a bit uncertain why you would make such an audacious claim. In regards to the religious fixations of others, I would die to ensure their right to practice what they believe, even though I have never felt a need for such things in this life.

That would still be fine YmirGF, if you didn't feel entitled to subject the rest of us to your "wisdom."

Unfortunately, I get wonderful comments from people all the time saying how much they love what I have written. Are you openly stating that so many here on RF are wrong for being supportive of my annoying, small-minded points? I also should say that I don't believe I am wise in any way. I'll leave that for others to decide, but the adjective is essentially meaningless to me.

 

[lilithu]

Unfortunately, I get wonderful comments from people all the time saying how much they love what I have written. Are you openly stating that so many here on RF are wrong for being supportive of my annoying, small-minded points?

No, I'm openly stating that you are coming into the UU forum to point out what you think is wrong with our religion.

 

[YmirGF]

No, I'm openly stating that you are coming into the UU forum to point out what you think is wrong with our religion.

Oh good grief. I don't suppose you could put your personal hallucinations aside and simply answer my question intelligently.

 

[lilithu]

Oh good grief. I don't suppose you could put your personal hallucinations aside and simply answer my question intelligently.

Oh good grief. What is it that makes you think you can come into someone else's religion forum to give your uninvited critique and then think that you are entitled to an answer to your pointed questions?

No wait, don't bother answering that.

 

[YmirGF]

Oh good grief. What is it that makes you think you can come into someone else's religion forum to give your uninvited critique and then think that you are entitled to an answer to your pointed questions?

No wait, don't bother answering that.

What I find amusing is that you have now gone from calling my questions "an attack" to the more diplomatic language of being an "uninvited critique".

Enjoy your little protected space, Lilithu, I won't be back to it anytime soon.

 

[cheddarsox]

Still a UU issue, same church, but this time a sub-group. The CUUPs group at my former church is planning an Egyptian themed Yule ritual...

Now, if none of you are pagan and don't know anything about pagan faiths, this might just seem 'interesting', but well, Yule is from a totally different religion and culture then the ancient Egyptian religion/culture. There is no connect.

This isn't a case of appreciating the wisdom that various faiths offer, it's "we're UU pagans, we can do what ever we want."

The principles encourage a responsible search for truth...

anyway...I am TRYING to give this church/faith another chance...but I get these e-mails that scream "Stay Away!Lest you be swept into the river of nonsense."

And now, the minister has decided to alter her sabbatical...instead of taking off six months in one year, she's going to give herself two extra months of vacation..for the next three years! How creative! How UU!