Congratulations to the British People

[Notanumber]

I found that speech revolting, especially coming from a Prime Minister.

She is a Remainer after all and a leopard never changes its spots.

 

[ChristineM]

So this march represents the will of the British people more than the results of the referendum?

Considering the leave voters amounted to around 37% of the british people it is something of a misnomer to claim it as the will of the british people

 

[ChristineM]

I don't know. It certainty didn't help me make heads from tails over what exactly all is going on, might be going on, perhaps will go on, or just nobody knows what will go on over Brexit. Still a bunch of insanity, IMO.

You should try being a brit living outside britain in the EU. It really would be nice to know what is going on.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

He comments in the first video that democracy means being able to try things out and change your mind a few years later, but that isn't what has happened here. What has happened is that people voted to leave but were ignored.

Demonstrably false. They are not being ignored. Both the Government and the main Opposition are in favour of implementing Brexit. It is the 48% who voted Remain who are being ignored. The Opposition are supposed to oppose the Government; but all Corbyn opposes is the way the Prime Minister is handling Brexit; he still agrees that it's the right thing to do. The only real opposition in the House of Commons has come from the SNP and the Green Party. Corbyn has a habit of abstaining on crucial votes (and whips his party to do the same) which leaves the rest of us to wonder why on earth he's even there.

If you want to talk about who is being ignored you might mention Scotland. We voted by 62% to Remain in the EU; that translated to a majority vote for Remain in every Scottish constituency. This link has a map of the result for the referendum: Remain = yellow; Leave = blue

Below is a video pointing out the democratic deficit inherent to the UK: Scottish MPs and the Scottish Government have been ignored consistently throughout this whole process. Our suggestions have been ignored, the representatives we elect have been ignored etc.

This is Mhairi Black, SNP member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South

Now this new referendum is acting as a rubber stamp on that. It appears actually that there was no democracy and never a choice. The UK and EU controlled media constantly droned on that Brexit was a disaster and refused to accept the decision citing delays and excuses. No democracy here.

A referendum is either irreversible or it is democratic. It cannot be both. This notion from Brexit supporters that offering people the chance to make a fresh choice is undemocratic is frankly surreal. Have they ever voted in more than one general election or council election?

Every expert on the subject has predicted Brexit will harm the economies of the various nations that make up the UK to varying degrees. I'm genuinely confused as to why Brexiteers are so adamant that we shouldn't listen to people who know what they're talking about.

We had a vote, that's it. We do it once and then we work with the result. What's hard about that?

Um, the result was achieved illegally? Why do so many people who apparently care so much about democracy not have a problem with this?

We know what we wanted: to leave the EU. No customs union, no free movement, none of it. They gave us a vote and we voted. That they don't like the result shows how out of touch they are.

I think you know full well you can't derive that from the result because the matter of our single market & customs union memberships were not in the remit of the question. You might have voted Leave with a hard Brexit in mind but the ballot paper didn't give the option for it. There's also the small problem that the Vote Leave campaign repeatedly said they weren't campaigning for a hard Brexit.

Social conservatism won for a change, boo hoo.

Some democracy this is.

It won by lying, law-breaking and deceit. Not the best advert for social conservatism I've ever seen. The only reason the courts won't annul the result is because despite the fact the Government is acting as though it is, the result is not legally binding.

Yes, until it became clear we weren't going to get anything like that whatsoever. May tried to fob us off with a deal that was possibly the worst ever envisioned by a leader and suited absolutely no-one. We became more zealous the more the government tried to palm us off with crap like this. Now we're all just saying, Fine, let's just nuke out. We're obviously not going to get a deal now. It's been two years and we've been thrown under the bus.

I appreciate you feel that way but honestly I don't see what grounds you have to complain. You voted Leave and the Prime Minister has tried to implement the result (end our EU membership). She's had her back to the wall against 27 other countries with a common position and a sense of consensus that can only dream of in the UK. You and every other Leave voter put her there now you're surprised that she's done a terrible job. You put your mark next to a poorly-defined position and now you're surprised the government doesn't know what it wants to do.

And this talk of being thrown under the bus: I'm sorry but I take exception to the fact that you, an English Leaver, are saying this. Of all peoples in the UK you're the last who should be using this term because I wonder if you know what being thrown under the bus really feels like.

Being thrown under the bus feels like:

• Having what your country voted for dismissed out of hand 'bcuz it wus a UK vote';
• Having your elected officials be treated with contempt in the House of Commons to the point where their detractors are actually violating Parliamentary rules & protocols but nothing is done about it;
• Be told you're in a Union of equals but then get told 'you have to do what we want';
• Having your elected government shut out of the negotiation process - even if the ones doing the negotiating on your behalf have no right to speak for you;
• Having your elected governments suggestions dismissed out of hand by foreign politicians, only to have them appear 2 years later as if they were those foreign politicians ideas;
• Having a foreign Parliament unilaterally give itself the power to take back any and all laws from your elected Parliament whenever it wants - and engages in underhanded chicanery to stop your Parliament from challenging it;
• Having a foreign leader tell you 'lead the UK, don't leave the UK' then his compatriots go back to treating your MPs & Government as a joke;
• Have your desire to seek self-determination blocked by a foreign parliament ironically bleating about how it can't stand foreign impositions on its sovereignty

England is not treated this way. It never has been.

• You have the Government and the main Opposition supporting Brexit;
• you're part of a Union where your country always gets the government it votes for;
• you're in a position where you don't need to worry about the officials you elect being ignored like the Celtic countries do;
• the party England returned to power (twice) has significant divisions thanks to the European Research Group (ironically named because they don't have a ****ing clue about how the EU works) so a hard Brexit position is something the Government isn't ignoring in the slightest - unlike with a Remain position;
• the party England voted for is currently handing bungs to a hard-Brexit party of Young Earth Creationists who are so unbelievably brain-dead they think the Earth is 6,000 years old.

She is a Remainer after all and a leopard never changes its spots.

She's trying to implement the result of the referendum: ending our EU membership. If you're upset because May doesn't want to end the single market or customs union memberships then you should take that up with whoever wrote the original ballot question.

 

[Altfish]

We had a vote, that's it. We do it once and then we work with the result. What's hard about that? We know what we wanted: to leave the EU. No customs union, no free movement, none of it. They gave us a vote and we voted. That they don't like the result shows how out of touch they are.

Social conservatism won for a change, boo hoo.

Some democracy this is.

No, and I quote a leading Leaver...

In a 2012 speech on the European Union (EU), Mr Davis said: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”.

Or perhaps you prefer a quote from UKIP leader...

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

So, what has changed?

 

[Rival]

Um, the result was achieved illegally? Why do so many people who apparently care so much about democracy not have a problem with this?

The people who voted were well within their legal rights to vote to leave. The Leave Campaign and the people who voted are two different things.

I think you know full well you can't derive that from the result because the matter of our single market & customs union memberships were not in the remit of the question. You might have voted Leave with a hard Brexit in mind but the ballot paper didn't give the option for it. There's also the small problem that the Vote Leave campaign repeatedly said they weren't campaigning for a hard Brexit.

As I said, we envisioned trade deals similar to what other non-EU nations have. That didn't happen. May was even offered a Canada style deal iirc and she rejected it. Most leavers I know would have been totally OK with that deal but she screwed us over. We assumed that because the government had given us the option to leave, they already had a plan in place to deal with that result should it happen, like any sensible Parliament would have. But not ours.

It won by lying, law-breaking and deceit. Not the best advert for social conservatism I've ever seen. The only reason the courts won't annul the result is because despite the fact the Government is acting as though it is, the result is not legally binding.

The Leave Campaign may have done that; not the majority who went out & voted for it. Also, I had a huge problem with the government actively taking a side. Not exactly the government neutrality I'd expect. That seemed like pretty outright telling your own people how to vote and I thought it was completely abhorrent.

I appreciate you feel that way but honestly I don't see what grounds you have to complain. You voted Leave and the Prime Minister has tried to implement the result (end our EU membership). She's had her back to the wall against 27 other countries with a common position and a sense of consensus that can only dream of in the UK. You and every other Leave voter put her there now you're surprised that she's done a terrible job. You put your mark next to a poorly-defined position and now you're surprised the government doesn't know what it wants to do.

She hasn't though. She's had two whole years to come up with a deal that was basically offered her by the EU at the beginning. Also, no-one put her there, let's be honest. We had a vote and the Tories lost seats by a landslide and have to prop themselves up with some unknown Irish party that no-one cared about. Unfortunately according to how our system works, she can prop her weak cabinet up like that and it was a shame for everyone. Everyone in my household is a Labour voter and a Leaver.

And this talk of being thrown under the bus: I'm sorry but I take exception to the fact that you, an English Leaver, are saying this. Of all peoples in the UK you're the last who should be using this term because I wonder if you know what being thrown under the bus really feels like.

Being thrown under the bus feels like:

• Having what your country voted for dismissed out of hand 'bcuz it wus a UK vote';
• Having your elected officials be treated with contempt in the House of Commons to the point where their detractors are actually violating Parliamentary rules & protocols but nothing is done about it;
• Be told you're in a Union of equals but then get told 'you have to do what we want';
• Having your elected government shut out of the negotiation process - even if the ones doing the negotiating on your behalf have no right to speak for you;
• Having your elected governments suggestions dismissed out of hand by foreign politicians, only to have them appear 2 years later as if they were those foreign politicians ideas;
• Having a foreign Parliament unilaterally give itself the power to take back any and all laws from your elected Parliament whenever it wants - and engages in underhanded chicanery to stop your Parliament from challenging it;
• Having a foreign leader tell you 'lead the UK, don't leave the UK' then his compatriots go back to treating your MPs & Government as a joke;
• Have your desire to seek self-determination blocked by a foreign parliament ironically bleating about how it can't stand foreign impositions on its sovereignty

England is not treated this way. It never has been.

• You have the Government and the main Opposition supporting Brexit;
• you're part of a Union where your country always gets the government it votes for;
• you're in a position where you don't need to worry about the officials you elect being ignored like the Celtic countries do;
• the party England returned to power (twice) has significant divisions thanks to the European Research Group (ironically named because they don't have a ****ing clue about how the EU works) so a hard Brexit position is something the Government isn't ignoring in the slightest - unlike with a Remain position;
• the party England voted for is currently handing bungs to a hard-Brexit party of Young Earth Creationists who are so unbelievably brain-dead they think the Earth is 6,000 years old.

Yeah, it sucks, but none of this is exactly my fault. All I wanted is a Brexit, which I assumed the government had plans for before we were asked to vote should we have chosen to leave.

 

[Rival]

No, and I quote a leading Leaver...

In a 2012 speech on the European Union (EU), Mr Davis said: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”.

Or perhaps you prefer a quote from UKIP leader...

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

So, what has changed?

I'm not saying people can't change their minds, but we had a once in a lifetime referendum that saw one of the largest turnouts in British history. For once the people thought they had a chance to make a statement and they did. There was a clear result. What's the point of democracy if results aren't honoured?

 

[Altfish]

I'm not saying people can't change their minds, but we had a once in a lifetime referendum that saw one of the largest turnouts in British history. For once the people thought they had a chance to make a statement and they did. There was a clear result. What's the point of democracy if results aren't honoured?

The once in a lifetime happened one before in 1975.

I agree they had an opportunity but...
The electorate were sold lies.

1. There were many election irregularities, which have already been found proven in court.
2. There are serious funding issues for the Leave campaign, with Aaron Banks the most dodgy and Russia almost certainly involed.
3. Cambridge Analytica??

The Leave campaign rhetoric has change from, "It'll be brilliant and we'll all be much better off" to "Well we'll only be worse off for the first 10 to 20 years"

 

[Rival]

The once in a lifetime happened one before in 1975.

I agree they had an opportunity but...
The electorate were sold lies.

1. There were many election irregularities, which have already been found proven in court.
2. There are serious funding issues for the Leave campaign, with Aaron Banks the most dodgy and Russia almost certainly involed.
3. Cambridge Analytica??

The Leave campaign rhetoric has change from, "It'll be brilliant and we'll all be much better off" to "Well we'll only be worse off for the first 10 to 20 years"

As I've said general voters =/= leave campaign.

 

[Stanyon]

If we look back at the beginning of this the so called far-right and the Russians were blamed for Brexit support in numerous media sources. Maybe the U.K. should look into collusion between anti-Brexit politicians and fear mongering in the media to form public opinion. Some say democracy dies in darkness, not anymore, it's dying right in front of you.
Keeping the sheep in line is what shepherds do.

 

[Notanumber]

The once in a lifetime happened one before in 1975.

I agree they had an opportunity but...
The electorate were sold lies.

1. There were many election irregularities, which have already been found proven in court.
2. There are serious funding issues for the Leave campaign, with Aaron Banks the most dodgy and Russia almost certainly involed.
3. Cambridge Analytica??

The Leave campaign rhetoric has change from, "It'll be brilliant and we'll all be much better off" to "Well we'll only be worse off for the first 10 to 20 years"

The electorate were sold lies back in 1975 and it has taken four decades to correct the situation or so we thought.

 

[Altfish]

The electorate were sold lies back in 1975 and it has taken four decades to correct the situation or so we thought.

So, brexiteers solved it by lying to the electorate.

When we joined the EU in '75 we were described as the "Poor man of Europe", from gaining membership we are at the top along with Germany.
Leave will see us head back to the bottom again??

 

[Notanumber]

So, brexiteers solved it by lying to the electorate.

When we joined the EU in '75 we were described as the "Poor man of Europe", from gaining membership we are at the top along with Germany.
Leave will see us head back to the bottom again??

If I was as negative about the UK as you are, I would not be able to live with myself. No offence intended.

 

[Altfish]

If I was as negative about the UK as you are, I would not be able to live with myself. No offence intended.

I'm positive about the UK, I want nothing but the best for the UK.
I offered you one reason why the EU has benefited the UK and you virtually called me a traitor.

As I have repeatedly said, there is a lot wrong with the EU but if you do advantages v disadvantages staying comes out top. (btw you can still have a blue passport and Albania and Turkey won't be joining any time soon)

 

[Notanumber]

If we didn’t have Jeff, who is the voice of reason, explaining what is going on and the likely outcomes, we would all be suicidal by now.

 

[LuisDantas]

We had a vote, that's it. We do it once and then we work with the result. What's hard about that? We know what we wanted: to leave the EU. No customs union, no free movement, none of it. They gave us a vote and we voted. That they don't like the result shows how out of touch they are.

Word has it that the 2016 campaign did, in fact, promise that there would be no question that the Single Market, at least, would be preserved.

And free movement and a customs union are, in practice, necessary if there is any intent of preserving the United Kingdom as such. The Good Friday Agreement is not to be slighted, I hear. Or are you saying that you want Ireland to reunify?

Social conservatism won for a change, boo hoo.

If its wins are typically the precursors of so much harm, maybe they should be avoided more fiercely in the future.

Some democracy this is.

It seems to me that such is not even remotely the matter at hand.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, until it became clear we weren't going to get anything like that whatsoever. May tried to fob us off with a deal that was possibly the worst ever envisioned by a leader and suited absolutely no-one. We became more zealous the more the government tried to palm us off with crap like this. Now we're all just saying, Fine, let's just nuke out. We're obviously not going to get a deal now. It's been two years and we've been thrown under the bus.

So, I take it that you believe that somehow a better deal could have been made if the political will at Westminster were different?

I very much doubt it, and I sort of assumed that Leavers do not really believe in that either, since they have been so angry and resorted to talk about "Remoaners" and "Project Fear".

 

[LuisDantas]

Considering the leave voters amounted to around 37% of the british people it is something of a misnomer to claim it as the will of the british people

I think that this is a key element of the current situation.

British politics is often described as following a "first past the post" model. Meaning that there is always a clear winner with a presumed mandate for making decisions.

That is always a problem with right wingers. They just don't seem to understand that holding power does not exempt them from having a measure of respect for the needs and desires of people overall. They do not seem to expect people to actually engage in good faith negotiations, and sometimes seem to actually doubt that such a thing may exist at all.

Edited to add: as it turns out, Phil has just posted this, which I feel to be relevant in that is discusses the odd perceptions of the right.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not saying people can't change their minds, but we had a once in a lifetime referendum that saw one of the largest turnouts in British history. For once the people thought they had a chance to make a statement and they did. There was a clear result. What's the point of democracy if results aren't honoured?

Not the point at all, I fear.

Also, what do you mean by "once in a lifetime"?

 

[LuisDantas]

As I've said general voters =/= leave campaign.

May you please elaborate?