Congratulations to the British People

[Notanumber]

The UK Prime Minister and his government would not have authorised a Referendum to leave the EU if it would lead to all the woes that the Remoaners are obsessed about.

That would have been a crime against the state.

The Referendum took place and despite the best efforts of those that campaigned to remain with all their project fear, the population voted to leave the EU.

We had a snap General Election and both major parties campaigned to honour that Referendum.

Since then 498 MP’s voted to pass legislation that stated that the UK would leave the EU on the 29th of March 2019, with a deal or without a deal.

The current government has faffed around for nearly 3 years to present the worst deal in history to Parliament and expected MP’s to vote it through. It seems that our MP’s are not as stupid as Mrs Merkel and her associates thought they were.

Our current Prime Minister has told us repeatedly, that Brexit means Brexit, No deal is better than a bad deal and that the UK is leaving the EU on the 29th.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It would be if their vote had been honored. (Excuse me: honoured). It looks very undemocratic from this side of the ocean for the UK government to bombard media (BBC government controlled) with opposition to a democratic referendum ex-post-facto while stalling for 4 years -- until it could convince enough citizens to change their minds. I know, I'm over here and not over there. I'm not Scottish, Welsh or Irish. I'm telling you everybody knows that the UK Brexit referendum passed, but that the government stalled action until it could gather support to halt and reverse the referendum. In other words the referendum was vetoed by the government not by a democratic vote. I'm not saying that we have perfect control of our central government over here. I'm saying that the result of your referendum was ignored. Maybe it was a bad idea in your opinion. It still got ignored.

The BBC is not government controlled, it has no part in it, it would be illegal for the government to put any pressure on it in any way. We hear from both sides of the brexit debate every day.

May has not reversed the referendum. She is fighting to enact it.
A democratic vote of the people today would almost certainly support the repeal of article 50 and withdraw from brexit.
There is not a majority in parliament for any course of action. even though a majority in parliament voted to stay in the referendum.

 

[Rival]

It's irrelevant what you wanted but what you voted for.
And indeed you voted to leave the EU.

Indeed.

This is simply not true.
The question on the ballot paper was as follows:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The possible answers were:
"Remain a member of the European Union"
or
"Leave the European Union"

Nowhere does it say under which provisions the UK should leave the EU. Absolutely nowhere.
And unless there's a referendum about what these provisions should be we can but only guess what the people wanted who voted in the referendum.

After the referendum the Government enacted Article 50, supported by the Opposition. Both signalled that they would find a way to leave the EU.
The problem of the last 3 years is that the electorate did not tell them what kind of future relationship with the EU it wants.
It simply didn't.

Just because "A" wants a hard Brexit and shoot EU citizens on sight does not mean that "B" wants this too.
It's disingenuous to claim some sort of knowledge what the majority of Leave voters wanted without credible evidence.

I wasn't sure that 'leaving the EU' could mean anything else. Everyone I spoke to, admittedly not every single leaver voter of course, assumed that it mean totally out. No more ties to the EU whatsoever. However, no matter the case, people are always going to have different opinions in politics, even if they vote for the same thing; I thought surely the UK government, terrible as it currently is/was, would have had a pre-plan in place for a leave result, and if that meant subsequent votes on certain issues, that would have been fine. They simply didn't offer us that. From the moment the result was announced, the whole government was in chaos and everyone wanted to shove their fingers up their arses and let someone else deal with it.

The people I spoke to who voted leave mostly wanted not to be part of what they saw/see as a failing project.

Of course you could've gotten a relationship like Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein. But you didn't want it.

You could've gotten a relationship like Switzerland. But you didn't want it.

You could've gotten a relationship like Ukraine. But you didn't want it.

You could've gotten a relationship like Turkey. But you didn't want it.

As an individual, I would have been happy with any of those options.

You wanted to keep your cake and eat it. Real life doesn't work like that.
With all due respect don't act like this is all the fault of the EU.

You had your referendum and the EU accepted it.
You had your result of the referendum and the EU accepted it.

That is the end of the line for the EU. After that the EU has to keep the interests of its member states in mind.

You think this was tough? Good luck with the Chinese, Russians, Japanese and Americans.

I lay the blame here solely on the UK government, not the EU.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

She has put her deal up for a number of vote in Parliament and calls that democracy
When the people say they want the chance to vote again brexiteers say that it is not democratic.
That is double standards by Brexiteers.

Theresa May is not a Brexiteer.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Your claim was "So this march represents the will of the British people more than the results of the referendum?"

Not the will of those who voted

Right, but the way an election/referendum commonly works, the results are taken as representative of the will of all the people, not just those who voted.

 

[ChristineM]

Right, but the way an election/referendum commonly works, the results are taken as representative of the will of all the people, not just those who voted.

Nope,first past the post is not necessarily the will of the people.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Nope,first past the post is not necessarily the will of the people.

Not necessarily, I agree. But the result of the referendum is still arguably more representative of the will of the people than a march attended by hundreds of thousands of remainers and friends.

 

[ChristineM]

Not necessarily, I agree. But the result of the referendum is still arguably more representative of the will of the people than a march attended by hundreds of thousands of remainers and friends.

Neither are the will of the people. To say they are is not accurate.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Neither are the will of the people. To say they are is not accurate.

I think we can say that one is more so than the other.

 

[Altfish]

You can't just go back and change the result because you don't like it.

I want the best for the UK; the last 3 years have proved beyond doubt, Leave will not be best and we have been sold a pup.

So now we know what we are getting the people can make an informed decision.

 

[Altfish]

. And the Irish/NI border issue was always going to be difficult.

But dismissed by Leavers as Project Fear

 

[LuisDantas]

You can't just go back and change the result because you don't like it.

Taken to the extreme (and I think that a good case can be made that this is what is happening), that argument becomes an appeal for denial of democracy in favor of blind rule-following.

 

[LuisDantas]

That sounds very elitist.

Does it? Have you actually read the list of demands from the yellow vests?

They are a masterpiece of immature, contradictory, childish wishful thinking.

Macron would be welcome to simply ignore the brats altogether, far as I am concerned.

Maybe. I guess that was clear to me from the start.

I have to wonder how come. Which stances towards those matters (Irish border, customs unions, single market) did you assume to apply? How clear do you think they were to others back in the 2016 referendum?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

But dismissed by Leavers as Project Fear

Not all of us.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Taken to the extreme (and I think that a good case can be made that this is what is happening), that argument becomes an appeal for denial of democracy in favor of blind rule-following.

I agree, but I don't think that we can make that case (yet).

 

[ChristineM]

I think we can say that one is more so than the other.

I dont see how not the will of the people can be the will of the people.

One is the will of 37% of the people
One is the will of those who attended the rally

 

[LuisDantas]

The UK Prime Minister and his government would not have authorised a Referendum to leave the EU if it would lead to all the woes that the Remoaners are obsessed about.

Do you trust David Cameron and other politicians' wisdom that much now? Did you back in the day?

If so, why exactly do you refuse to extend the same courtesy to Theresa May and others in the current day?

It looks quite arbitrary to me.

That would have been a crime against the state.

It was. The referendum was illegal to begin with. That is why it had to be presented as non-binding.

Also, it turns out that No Deal is also illegal, despite still being the default and most likely end result of all this grief and madness.

The Referendum took place and despite the best efforts of those that campaigned to remain with all their project fear, the population voted to leave the EU.

You know, stopping with that "project fear" nonsense would go a long way towards improving your standing far as credibility goes.

We had a snap General Election and both major parties campaigned to honour that Referendum.

Since then 498 MP’s voted to pass legislation that stated that the UK would leave the EU on the 29th of March 2019, with a deal or without a deal.

Pretty much all of that is now obsolete. I am not sure of what your point is.

The current government has faffed around for nearly 3 years to present the worst deal in history to Parliament and expected MP’s to vote it through. It seems that our MP’s are not as stupid as Mrs Merkel and her associates thought they were.

I am not Angela Merkel, but I sure expected more wisdom from the British MPs than they have overall shown. Except for the Independent Group and a few others, that is.

As for the deal, you should probably consider that literally no one has managed to present a better alternative. Mainly because Brexit is such a self-sabotaging proposal, it would seem.

Our current Prime Minister has told us repeatedly, that Brexit means Brexit, No deal is better than a bad deal and that the UK is leaving the EU on the 29th.

And now you suddenly trust her to her word? How self-serving and how inconsistent.

 

[Notanumber]

Does it? Have you actually read the list of demands from the yellow vests?

They are a masterpiece of immature, contradictory, childish wishful thinking.

Macron would be welcome to simply ignore the brats altogether, far as I am concerned.

You sound as harsh and dismissive of the ‘plebs’ as Macron is.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not necessarily, I agree. But the result of the referendum is still arguably more representative of the will of the people than a march attended by hundreds of thousands of remainers and friends.

Now that is a bet that I would like to take.

As should everyone who cares about the future of the UK, really.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I have to wonder how come. Which stances towards those matters (Irish border, customs unions, single market) did you assume to apply? How clear do you think they were to others back in the 2016 referendum?

My point was that it would seem obvious (to me) that one would have to take a stance on those issues, if one thinks through the implications of leaving the EU one way or another (those all being arguably rather fundamental concerns if one is a member of the EU).

But perhaps most did not think through these implications, instead voting leave or remain for other reasons.