Congratulations to the British People

[LuisDantas]

The electorate were sold lies back in 1975 and it has taken four decades to correct the situation or so we thought.

Then surely you ought to sympathise with those who want to correct the results of lies back in 2016 and avoid actions that would harm the UK for decades?

 

[LuisDantas]

If we didn’t have Jeff, who is the voice of reason, explaining what is going on and the likely outcomes, we would all be suicidal by now.

In which sense, if any, is Jeff any more a voice of reason than, say, Phil from the first post of this thread?

In case you are wondering, Jeff does not come across as either reasonable nor rational. Quite on the contrary really.

I well remember the irresponsible, blind way in which he described and praised the yellow vests.

It is a bit of a shame that people listen to him at all.

 

[Notanumber]

In which sense, if any, is Jeff any more a voice of reason than, say, Phil from the first post of this thread?

In case you are wondering, Jeff does not come across as either reasonable nor rational. Quite on the contrary really.

I well remember the irresponsible, blind way in which he described and praised the yellow vests.

It is a bit of a shame that people listen to him at all.

Is this the video?

If so, what did he get wrong?

The Yellow Vests are not being reported as much as they should be in the UK, but that does not mean that they have given up.

If the PM was determined to leave the EU why did she authorise the signing of the UN 'Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration' that, although not yet legally binding, aims to make immigration a human right and the criticism of it a crime. With the further requirement that countries actively encourage and support migration. All that combined would make the notion of nation states and borders a total nonsense, which is the ultimate wet dream for the left of course.

 

[Flankerl]

We know what we wanted: to leave the EU.

It's irrelevant what you wanted but what you voted for.
And indeed you voted to leave the EU.

No customs union, no free movement, none of it.

This is simply not true.
The question on the ballot paper was as follows:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The possible answers were:
"Remain a member of the European Union"
or
"Leave the European Union"

Nowhere does it say under which provisions the UK should leave the EU. Absolutely nowhere.
And unless there's a referendum about what these provisions should be we can but only guess what the people wanted who voted in the referendum.

After the referendum the Government enacted Article 50, supported by the Opposition. Both signalled that they would find a way to leave the EU.
The problem of the last 3 years is that the electorate did not tell them what kind of future relationship with the EU it wants.
It simply didn't.

Just because "A" wants a hard Brexit and shoot EU citizens on sight does not mean that "B" wants this too.
It's disingenuous to claim some sort of knowledge what the majority of Leave voters wanted without credible evidence.

Yes, until it became clear we weren't going to get anything like that whatsoever. May tried to fob us off with a deal that was possibly the worst ever envisioned by a leader and suited absolutely no-one. We became more zealous the more the government tried to palm us off with crap like this. Now we're all just saying, Fine, let's just nuke out. We're obviously not going to get a deal now. It's been two years and we've been thrown under the bus.

Of course you could've gotten a relationship like Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein. But you didn't want it.

You could've gotten a relationship like Switzerland. But you didn't want it.

You could've gotten a relationship like Ukraine. But you didn't want it.

You could've gotten a relationship like Turkey. But you didn't want it.

You wanted to keep your cake and eat it. Real life doesn't work like that.
With all due respect don't act like this is all the fault of the EU.

You had your referendum and the EU accepted it.
You had your result of the referendum and the EU accepted it.

That is the end of the line for the EU. After that the EU has to keep the interests of its member states in mind.

You think this was tough? Good luck with the Chinese, Russians, Japanese and Americans.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Notanumber , the Yellow Vests are glorified and deluded brats with no notion of the decisions have to make.

They deserve no prestige whatsoever.

 

[LuisDantas]

You know, a while ago I was reading about the G8 and wondering quite what earned the UK a seat there. It felt sort of grandfathered in.

Apparently there are people who feel quite the opposite.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Of course, this March is a show of support from (mostly) one side of the dispute, and inherently unattractive to the opposite side.

All the same, it is a significant, hopefully decisive indication of how necessary it is to reconsider the initial results.

If the march is a show of support from those who voted remain (plus others who didn't have the right to vote but have a stake in the outcome of this whole mess), then I don't see how that makes it necessary to reconsider the initial results. There was after all a significant number of people who voted remain and who feel strongly enough about the outcome to march to show their support for the remain position.

Then again, it should be clear that a referendum given almost three years ago, without much of an effort at understanding the issues involved, is easily less representative than the current understanding.

I'm not sure we have any greater understanding of the issues now than then!

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Currently it does.
We also now have FACTS rather than all the rubbish about PROJECT FEAR, facts like the car industry is retreating from the UK; the city is losing thousands of jobs BAe are stopping investment, etc, etc
Did I mention the Irish Border - no I thought not.

The problem is, a march of this kind only shows the strong feelings/'vote' of one side. At the time of the referendum, there was a large number of people who voted remain, so inevitably some might come out to show their feelings at a time like this (when there is some hope of remain winning out in the end).

I certainly agree that we have a few more facts than we did back then. And the Irish/NI border issue was always going to be difficult.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure we have any greater understanding of the issues now than then!

Don't you feel that, at the very least, awareness of the need for stances regarding the Irish Border (and the Good Friday Agreements), the Single Market and the Customs Unions have improved somewhat?

Sure, there is quite a lot of unfortunate ignorance still. But advancement has been made.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

as support/opposition to Brexit has been fairly close

That's true, but it was still a clear 'win' for the leave side.

but the majority has definitely switched to oppose since the referendum

Evidence?

But it's quite a mess,

A massive mess by a bunch of incompetents. I voted leave, but the incompetence of our politicians almost makes me want to abstain if there is a second referendum. I say almost because my reason for voting leave still stands.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

If politicians and Brexiteers are so certain that they are delivering the 'Will of the People' why do they fear a second referendum?
If it is indeed the 'Will of the people' won't they win easily?

You can't just go back and change the result because you don't like it.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Considering the leave voters amounted to around 37% of the british people it is something of a misnomer to claim it as the will of the british people

And the remain voters amounted to?

We had a vote. People had a choice, leave or remain (or can't be bothered to even show up). Leave won the vote.

My claim was only that the result of the referendum is arguably more representative of the will of the people than a march attended by hundreds of thousands of remainers and friends.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

You should try being a brit living outside britain in the EU. It really would be nice to know what is going on.

I agree with that sentiment.

 

[Notanumber]

@Notanumber , the Yellow Vests are glorified and deluded brats with no notion of the decisions have to make.

They deserve no prestige whatsoever.

That sounds very elitist.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Don't you feel that, at the very least, awareness of the need for stances regarding the Irish Border (and the Good Friday Agreements), the Single Market and the Customs Unions have improved somewhat?

Sure, there is quite a lot of unfortunate ignorance still. But advancement has been made.

Maybe. I guess that was clear to me from the start.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

He comments in the first video that democracy means being able to try things out and change your mind a few years later, but that isn't what has happened here. What has happened is that people voted to leave but were ignored. Now this new referendum is acting as a rubber stamp on that. It appears actually that there was no democracy and never a choice. The UK and EU controlled media constantly droned on that Brexit was a disaster and refused to accept the decision citing delays and excuses. No democracy here.

She has put her deal up for a number of vote in Parliament and calls that democracy
When the people say they want the chance to vote again brexiteers say that it is not democratic.
That is double standards by Brexiteers.

 

[ChristineM]

And the remain voters amounted to?

We had a vote. People had a choice, leave or remain (or can't be bothered to even show up). Leave won the vote.

My claim was only that the result of the referendum is arguably more representative of the will of the people than a march attended by hundreds of thousands of remainers and friends.

Your claim was "So this march represents the will of the British people more than the results of the referendum?"

Not the will of those who voted

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes, until it became clear we weren't going to get anything like that whatsoever. May tried to fob us off with a deal that was possibly the worst ever envisioned by a leader and suited absolutely no-one. We became more zealous the more the government tried to palm us off with crap like this. Now we're all just saying, Fine, let's just nuke out. We're obviously not going to get a deal now. It's been two years and we've been thrown under the bus.

Just nuke article 50 like more than 4,000.000 petitioners are demanding.

 

[Brickjectivity]

She has put her deal up for a number of vote in Parliament and calls that democracy
When the people say they want the chance to vote again brexiteers say that it is not democratic.
That is double standards by Brexiteers.

It would be if their vote had been honored. (Excuse me: honoured). It looks very undemocratic from this side of the ocean for the UK government to bombard media (BBC government controlled) with opposition to a democratic referendum ex-post-facto while stalling for 4 years -- until it could convince enough citizens to change their minds. I know, I'm over here and not over there. I'm not Scottish, Welsh or Irish. I'm telling you everybody knows that the UK Brexit referendum passed, but that the government stalled action until it could gather support to halt and reverse the referendum. In other words the referendum was vetoed by the government not by a democratic vote. I'm not saying that we have perfect control of our central government over here. I'm saying that the result of your referendum was ignored. Maybe it was a bad idea in your opinion. It still got ignored.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Your claim was "So this march represents the will of the British people more than the results of the referendum?"

Not the will of those who voted

neither are fully representative

One is a vast march now, based on the facts now, by those with the energy to turn out.
The First referrendum of some years ago said stay by a large margin.
The Second referendum , which the Government is acting on, said leave by a very small margin of those that voted.

Now we can see what the process is leading to. we want another Referendum to confirm what the will of the people is today.

It is now a much changed electorate, very different to the one that voted for Brexit.
A large number of those that supported Brexit are now dead.
And many of the young people who wanted to stay can now vote.

What we do should represent the population today, not people who are no longer with us.
Brexiteers are so much against a new vote, because they believe they would lose.
They want their will to win, not that of the people.