Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[ChrisP]

You have to observe something or observe the output of it's creativity to determine sentience. I'm not going to nitpick about what you meant by Cavemen, I figure you mean human type creatures from long ago who were a few steps down the "evolutionary ladder" and have based my reply around that assumption. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[mickiel]

I might change my avatar to an ice cream because I am white

I might of been impressed if you had of said that the black pantha is your guide or something!

I didnot choose it to impress others, I choose it because its black like me.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

You have to observe something or observe the output of it's creativity to determine sentience. I'm not going to nitpick about what you meant by Cavemen, I figure you mean human type creatures from long ago who were a few steps down the "evolutionary ladder" and have based my reply around that assumption. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There is no evolutionary ladder, other than that your correct.

Peace.

 

[Valjean]

Well your point is well taken, and I agree. I mean a " Wide scope of Civilization" comes from Consciousness, not to exclude the uncivilized peoples. But they have Agriculture of some type, which is Consciousness, they have Language at some level, which is Consciousness, they have many levels of medicines which is Consciousness and they have wars and tribal disputes, which is Consciousness, Primordal man had none of these.
Peace.

How do you know this? What evidence do you have? The tibes I speak of are "primordial." They're culturally indistinguishable from Cro-Magnons or Neanderthals, as far as can be determined.
Modern cave men don't necessarily have agriculture.
Everyone has a fully developed language. Why do you think Cave men did not?
Why do you think cave men had no medicines?
Why do you think cave men had no wars and tribal disputes?

You have no evidence that A Cro Magnon was culturally or mentally any different from comparable primitives today -- and today's primitives are psychologically the same as us.

 

[mickiel]

How do you know this? What evidence do you have? .

I grow tired of people asking for evidence, when this post is already full of it. I grow tired of others, who don't know, asking me how I know.

The evidence and the knowledge is just not for your mind, thats the only answer I see. Your own beliefs lock your mind to truth, your own understanding blinds you to what does not blind me.

Peace.

 

[Agnostic75]

Obviously we had Nenderthal and Cromagnon prehistoric humans, obviously. But its my contention that they could not have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

If God would have given them Consciousness, Civilization would have started with them. Language would have began with them. Mathematics would have began with them, Government would have began with them, Science would have began with them. None of these things began with them, so I see no way possible they had anything beyond an " Instinctual Consciousness."

If you are making a case for theism, what is wrong with deism?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I grow tired of people asking for evidence, when this post is already full of it. I grow tired of others, who don't know, asking me how I know.

The evidence and the knowledge is just not for your mind, thats the only answer I see. Your own beliefs lock your mind to truth, your own understanding blinds you to what does not blind me.

Peace.

He asked you for evidence of your claim that cavemen did not have language, medicine or tribal disputes. In response, you post this tangled mess of dodges and ridiculous claims.

I'm tired of people not being able to back-up their statements with facts. Give the man his evidence, or admit that your opinion has no basis in reality.

 

[Quagmire]

One of the most immediately obvious proofs of guenuinely human consciousness in prehistoric humans is art.

Cave paintings have been dated to 40,000 BCE. Production of adornments, (jewelry, decorations), including religious, go back father than that.

 

[mickiel]

He asked you for evidence of your claim that cavemen did not have language, medicine or tribal disputes. In response, you post this tangled mess of dodges and ridiculous claims.

I'm tired of people not being able to back-up their statements with facts. Give the man his evidence, or admit that your opinion has no basis in reality.

My mind is evidence, my own thinking, my own reasoning, and I don't expect men to honor my mind. History is evidence, there is no history of Language, medicine or tribal disputes in Primordal man, absolutely zero history of it, and I don't expect men to honor history. Archaeology is evidence of it, there is not one case in archaeology that supports Language, and I don't expect men to honor Archaeology, There is no evidence of Tribal disputes in Primordal man, not even one! There is none, because they had none, its not my problem that you and others cannot get to this.

Agriculture is evidence that Primordal man had no culture, they had no Agriculture, because they had no language, because they had no Consciousness in their existence that could " Create Agriculture", through the ability to communicate and factor out and reason. The simple tools they made, and never advanced in their tool making, is complette absolute evidence that they were " Simple Minded", they were simple minded because they had no Consciousness. Everything they made was simple, which is evidence that they were without sophistication, which is further evidence that they were lacking in keen mental perception, wich is absolute evidence of deficient mentality.

They were not complicated, which means that they were not difficult to deal with each other, which is evidence that they had no tribal disputes. They were fundamental and elementary, which is evidence that they had no brand of Logic. From the elemental design of their tools, that is evidence that their minds were unpretenentious, they were not designed for war. They designed no offensive or defensive weapons, which is evidence of a peaceful society.

From Archaeology we know they didnot make things that " Complicated their Lives", they kept it simple, which is evidence of simple minded reasoning, not able to advance beyond that in millions of years, which is evidence of no Consciousness, no Language, No Tribal disputes, no Medicines, because sickness was perhaps rare. The longivity of their existence, is evidence of very little sickness. Which is further evidence of no medicines. The fact that they never advanced beyond this simplicity, is evidence of no Education system, which is evidence of no civilization, which is evidence of no Consciousness, which is evidence of no transportation, which is evidence of no science, which is evidence of no intellecual knowledge, which is further evidence that they could do " Only one thing at a time", uncompounded, uncomplex, plainess, which suggest to me a kind of " Freedom",

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

My mind is evidence, my own thinking, my own reasoning, and I don't expect men to honor my mind. History is evidence, there is no history of Language, medicine or tribal disputes in Primordal man, absolutely zero history of it, and I don't expect men to honor history. Archaeology is evidence of it, there is not one case in archaeology that supports Language, and I don't expect men to honor Archaeology, There is no evidence of Tribal disputes in Primordal man, not even one! There is none, because they had none, its not my problem that you and others cannot get to this.

Agriculture is evidence that Primordal man had no culture, they had no Agriculture, because they had no language, because they had no Consciousness in their existence that could " Create Agriculture", through the ability to communicate and factor out and reason. The simple tools they made, and never advanced in their tool making, is complette absolute evidence that they were " Simple Minded", they were simple minded because they had no Consciousness. Everything they made was simple, which is evidence that they were without sophistication, which is further evidence that they were lacking in keen mental perception, wich is absolute evidence of deficient mentality.

They were not complicated, which means that they were not difficult to deal with each other, which is evidence that they had no tribal disputes. They were fundamental and elementary, which is evidence that they had no brand of Logic. From the elemental design of their tools, that is evidence that their minds were unpretenentious, they were not designed for war. They designed no offensive or defensive weapons, which is evidence of a peaceful society.

From Archaeology we know they didnot make things that " Complicated their Lives", they kept it simple, which is evidence of simple minded reasoning, not able to advance beyond that in millions of years, which is evidence of no Consciousness, no Language, No Tribal disputes, no Medicines, because sickness was perhaps rare. The longivity of their existence, is evidence of very little sickness. Which is further evidence of no medicines. The fact that they never advanced beyond this simplicity, is evidence of no Education system, which is evidence of no civilization, which is evidence of no Consciousness, which is evidence of no transportation, which is evidence of no science, which is evidence of no intellecual knowledge, which is further evidence that they could do " Only one thing at a time", uncompounded, uncomplex, plainess, which suggest to me a kind of " Freedom",

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

There is a " Type of Freedom" in having no Consciousness, and all animals enjoy this, except when humans interfere with them. The type of freedom primordal man had , suggest to me many things. Millions of years without war or famine. They were then exempt from slavery, constraint or confinement, which are signs of civilization. They were unrestricted. Thus, having an existence like that, is literally perfect for growth and development, in millions of years they never grew and developed, which is absolute proof of having no consciousness, there are no excuses for that lack of development in my mind. It is easy to conclude that there was no Consciousness. Their freedom is evidence.

Their lack of advancement is evidence of " Retard", something hindered them, kept them at a slow steady pace which offered no emotional development. A sure retardation in awareness, the active, millions of years active abnormal course of survival without advancement. That is evidence of no Consciousness. No resolve.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Primordal man had no " Inspiration", because they had no " Spirit in them." Nothing to promote them into advanced creative action, only simple creations because they were simple minded. They had no " Illuminations that arises within the human Consciousness", from which come all of our advancements. There was no devine influence, because God didnot want them to advance. Lack of inspiration is evidence of no Language, no Transportation, no medicines, no education, no nothing but instinctual survival. Because all advancement is birthed from inspiration, thats bottomline fact.

But Primordal man " Maintained a steady vertical line in existence." They remained the same for millions of years, which suggest to me a people who had no addictions, no drinking problems, no sexual problems, no gender issues, no problem with crime, ALL of which suggest no Consciousness, because ALL of those things come directly FROM Consciousness!

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

The evidence is endless, just as the evidence for Gods existence is endless, and men ask for evidence, only to never see it. That blindness is evidence to me, complette astounding evidence, of a God, because only A God can blind Consciousness so well. And it be so well done. The evidence of the things I have said about Primordal man is abundant, but I understand that it is abundant within me, I cannot give that to another. My Consciousness, my body, are the greatest evidence of me that I understand easily, I know I exist. So I will say this and admit to it being speculation, but I seriously doubt that Primordal man even knew he existed. So simple minded that you are not even complettely aware of your own existence! Its like being on " Automatic Impulse", which defines Animal existence.

Only basic biological needs, leading to no behavior that is purposeful and directive. Primordal man had involuntary tendency or drive to act in a certain way under given conditions, just like animals, which is why they buried their dead. Much like a cat would bury its dung. " Archaic" at best, it came from the instinct they had in them. Spontantaneous unlearned behavior.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[Valjean]

This is just ridiculous. I'm outta here.

 

[ChrisP]

There is no evolutionary ladder, other than that your correct.

Peace.

You seem to have missed my point but thanks...

 

[The Neo Nerd]

OK

Here we have the "'I've already posted it" defense followed by the "You're just not able to understand my genius" defense AGAIN.

Well I understand you, but I have listed the proofs time and time again, you just do not accept them at face value. It is said that you are innocent until proven quilty, in my view, Primordal man was not Conscious, until proven otherwise. Digging graves is an instinct, in my view, animals do it. But when we unearth a grave that has Pots and pans, Jewelry, Chariots, money and written tablets within it, to me, those are signs of Consciousness, the graves of Primordal man had no such things included. The lack of these things, is evidence and proof of no Consciousness.

Just evidence that you cannot comprehend or accept.

Peace.

and AGAIN

I grow tired of people asking for evidence, when this post is already full of it. I grow tired of others, who don't know, asking me how I know.

The evidence and the knowledge is just not for your mind, thats the only answer I see. Your own beliefs lock your mind to truth, your own understanding blinds you to what does not blind me.

Peace.

and just to mix it up, the "my mind is evidence" defense

My mind is evidence, my own thinking, my own reasoning,

-Q

 

[David69]

Michael, usually technologys are traded for in some way or another! They are invented or realised by individuals. Where would Africans be for example if they hadnt of traded (given) for technologys? How advanced were they 2000 yrs ago? what technologys did they contribute? Goes for the whole world too. we all communicate! we have evolved over millions of years. we didnt just pop up 2000 years ago as a super intelligence. If it wasnt for technologys given to them they would be in the dark ages but to think that cave men have no conscious is boylicks m8. They communicated on higher levels as I mentioned earlier before speach!
in ways they were more advanced than today! IMO

 

[ImmortalFlame]

My mind is evidence, my own thinking, my own reasoning, and I don't expect men to honor my mind.

Wrong. Your mind is not evidence - it is just your mind. Just because you think something does not make it true, nor does it add validity to your supposition on any level.

History is evidence, there is no history of Language, medicine or tribal disputes in Primordal man, absolutely zero history of it, and I don't expect men to honor history.

Once again, wrong. As pointed-out above, there is plenty of evidence of language in primordial man which we see in cave paintings, etc. What's more, even if such evidence did not exist it is still not sufficient reason to conclude absolutely, as you did, that primordial man had none of these things.

Archaeology is evidence of it, there is not one case in archaeology that supports Language, and I don't expect men to honor Archaeology.

Wrong. Again, cave paintings.

There is no evidence of Tribal disputes in Primordal man, not even one! There is none, because they had none, its not my problem that you and others cannot get to this.

Wrong. The problem is not with you claiming that there is no evidence of such disputes, but with your claim that it was "because they had none". If you have no evidence then your argument is still baseless.

Agriculture is evidence that Primordal man had no culture, they had no Agriculture, because they had no language, because they had no Consciousness in their existence that could " Create Agriculture", through the ability to communicate and factor out and reason. The simple tools they made, and never advanced in their tool making, is complette absolute evidence that they were " Simple Minded", they were simple minded because they had no Consciousness. Everything they made was simple, which is evidence that they were without sophistication, which is further evidence that they were lacking in keen mental perception, wich is absolute evidence of deficient mentality.

They were not complicated, which means that they were not difficult to deal with each other, which is evidence that they had no tribal disputes. They were fundamental and elementary, which is evidence that they had no brand of Logic. From the elemental design of their tools, that is evidence that their minds were unpretenentious, they were not designed for war. They designed no offensive or defensive weapons, which is evidence of a peaceful society.

From Archaeology we know they didnot make things that " Complicated their Lives", they kept it simple, which is evidence of simple minded reasoning, not able to advance beyond that in millions of years, which is evidence of no Consciousness, no Language, No Tribal disputes, no Medicines, because sickness was perhaps rare. The longivity of their existence, is evidence of very little sickness. Which is further evidence of no medicines. The fact that they never advanced beyond this simplicity, is evidence of no Education system, which is evidence of no civilization, which is evidence of no Consciousness, which is evidence of no transportation, which is evidence of no science, which is evidence of no intellecual knowledge, which is further evidence that they could do " Only one thing at a time", uncompounded, uncomplex, plainess, which suggest to me a kind of " Freedom",

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

And the entire rest of this post is utter nonsense coated in presuppositions.

 

[mickiel]

The evidence is endless, just as the evidence for Gods existence is endless, and men ask for evidence, only to never see it. That blindness is evidence to me, complette astounding evidence, of a God, because only A God can blind Consciousness so well. And it be so well done. The evidence of the things I have said about Primordal man is abundant, but I understand that it is abundant within me, I cannot give that to another.Peace.

And it is also why I pay little attention to crys for evidence, one can give tons of it, but it is useless to the unknowing eye. God has blinded man to more knowledge than he has given them. There is no greater scientist than God, no greater Counselor than he, he can do wonders to the human Consciousness. Open complettely new doors of thought.

All Primordal humans were " Extroverts", their intrest and attention was directed toward what was " Outside of the Self." They related to the external, responding only with instincts, which is why they never became educated. They were not " Self Conscious", which is why they never developed any Religion. Religion makes you travel inward, as you search yourself and your purpose.

Primordal man responded to Weather and atmospheric changes, much like animals would, they never built buildings or houses, but stayed in caves that nature constructed for them. Their minds couldnot " Fabricate", or manufactor things that form into a whole by connecting the parts, because that framework requires Consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[Amill]

And it is also why I pay little attention to crys for evidence, one can give tons of it, but it is useless to the unknowing eye. God has blinded man to more knowledge than he has given them. There is no greater scientist than God, no greater Counselor than he, he can do wonders to the human Consciousness. Open complettely new doors of thought.

So we're supposed to take your word as evidence when you don't take ours? Get real man you don't provide any evidence, just opinion. It's pretty obvious that opinion and belief does not equal knowledge, just look at all the wrong ideas that people have had in the past. So tell us why we're supposed to take your word as evidence? You don't provide any outside information or any demonstrable evidence for the things you say, yet seem baffled that people continue to ask for evidence. If you think your word is good enough to quench our thirst for knowledge...then why don't you take our word for it when we provide our own opinions? The value that you give evidence is astoundingly low.

All Primordal humans were " Extroverts", their intrest and attention was directed toward what was " Outside of the Self." They related to the external, responding only with instincts, which is why they never became educated. They were not " Self Conscious"

We can easily provide evidence to you that species of animals living today learn skills and tactics. There are instances where only certain pockets of a species have learned how to do something. So why wouldn't we think that "primordial" man could learn? Crows can learn, monkeys and apes can learn, ect.

 

[mickiel]

.

Primordal man responded to Weather and atmospheric changes, much like animals would, they never built buildings or houses, but stayed in caves that nature constructed for them. Their minds couldnot " Fabricate", or manufactor things that form into a whole by connecting the parts, because that framework requires Consciousness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

There are several stages of creative thought; first, a stage of preparation in which the problem is worked over, then a period of incubation - without any conscious concentration upon the problem, and then the illumination which is later justified by logic. The comparrison between Primordal mans mind, and modern mans mind is exactly that, they had none of these stages, because history clearly shows the stages humans went through. Primordal man left a tract of no Consciousness. They had no imagination beyond simplicity. They had no power of mind to reproduce images or concepts stored in the memory, just like animals.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.