Conscription - good or bad?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, it probably would do a lot of good -- but would it be fair, would it be consistent with a free society?

What does fairness have to do with it? What do you mean by "freedom"?

 

[Valjean]

Oh, stop being so practical !

I know many who served in the military.
Didn't see much benefit...except for multiple free surgeries to fix war injuries.

It does seem to generate a lot of PTSD, suicide, homelessness, drug abuse, broken families, &c, at considerable public expense, now I think about it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Personally, in the UK I’d like to see a system of compulsory community national service, with the option of spending some time in the military. In the dystopian sci-fi film Starship Troopers military service is used to differentiate between citizens of the republic, and mere subjects. Perhaps the same could be done in real life, but with community service instead, to earn access to higher education or state benefits such as healthcare? Or the right to run for public office?

It would require a lot of bureaucracy though, and many support workers to administer it.

It would also create an opportunity for corruption and oppression: if you can make your political opponents ineligible for "national service," or if you make it out of reach of the masses, then you can make sure that only people who support you get the vote.

For instance, you could set the pay for this national service so low that people can't live on it; suddenly, only people who are independently wealthy or have family support would be able to vote, since they're the only ones who could afford to take that year off without a proper income.

Or you could make a rule that requires a clean criminal record to be eligible for service, but then you have the police crack down specifically on your opponents.

Even when we overlook how awful the idea is on the surface, there's a tremendous potential for abuse.

I’d say it would be good for society as it would instil civic values and would be good for individuals as it would give people occupational experience and a chance to prove themselves as loyal citizens and disciplined workers, to help them later in life.

How does it "instil civic values" to have a system based on the idea that patriotism needs to be coerced?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it's probably necessary for smaller countries like Greece that could be invaded by powerful neighbors such as Turkey.

Any country that would enslave its people in the name of defense is a country not worth defending.

If a country needs to expand its military to be ready for a war, it can do it by convincing people to serve, whether that means appealing to their patriotism, inducing them to enlist with better pay and bonuses, or addressing other reasons why they haven't enlisted (e.g. worries that their family will be taken care of while they're away).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What does fairness have to do with it? What do you mean by "freedom"?

"Not being enslaved" isn't the be-all and end-all of "freedom," but it's a good start.

 

[Valjean]

What does fairness have to do with it? What do you mean by "freedom"?

Freedom to live your own life as you wish, without being shanghaied into slavery and perhaps being forced to kill a lot of strangers who have done you no harm.

You'll have to forgive me. We liberals tend to be very concerned with Haidt's 2nd moral foundation...

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, I think a few years of civil service should be required of everyone, whether it's the military or something else. I think it would do a lot of good.

Have you personally tried it yet?

 

[74x12]

Me, I'd favor a general disarmament and prohibition of offensive war, with military and enforcement capacity vested in a single, international organization, a sort of, say... united nations.

Sounds terrific until the 1984 style control grid is in place; then there will be no one strong enough to fight back.

Conscription is slavery. I consider it to be evil, period.

It can be evil, but in the case of Greece as I pointed out. You have a small country with a more powerful rival like Turkey and other Balkan states that aren't exactly friendly. So some would say conscription is necessary.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"Not being enslaved" isn't the be-all and end-all of "freedom," but it's a good start.

Do you view having to work for a living as "enslavement"? If not, lay off the hyperbole.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Ah -- my personal choice for worst film ever, but the example is apt.

But the book is excellent

I agree -- if it's voluntary.
Mmmm... not so great. How much more prosperous would the country be if half our military expenditures were redirected to infrastructure, education, healthcare, &c?

assuming that some of the "compulsory service" goes towards those things? And that the participants receive training they can later use?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It can be evil, but in the case of Greece as I pointed out. You have a small country with a more powerful rival like Turkey and other Balkan states that aren't exactly friendly. So some would say conscription is necessary.

I addressed that in a later post. That case is still evil.

If the cause is a good one, the government is trustworthy, and the people's concerns are addressed (e.g. what will happen to their families while they're gone), people will enlist. Conscription is only necessary when at least one of those pieces is missing.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Freedom to live your own life as you wish, without being shanghaied into slavery and perhaps being forced to kill a lot of strangers who have done you no harm.

No one has the freedom to live as they want. I also didn't say that the service had to be the military or even that it had to be a combat position in the military. There's medical, R&D, etc. positions. I think tests and the person's disposition would help determine their placement.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Have you personally tried it yet?

I would if I could.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would if I could.

So you'd be exempt from the service you'd require of others?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you view having to work for a living as "enslavement"? If not, lay off the hyperbole.

I work for a living voluntarily. If we're talking about a system where you're required to work at a job assigned to you by the government, and if you refuse, you go to prison or are denied rights like voting, then we're talking about slavery.

Temporary slavery is still slavery.

 

[74x12]

Any country that would enslave its people in the name of defense is a country not worth defending.

If a country needs to expand its military to be ready for a war, it can do it by convincing people to serve, whether that means appealing to their patriotism, inducing them to enlist with better pay and bonuses, or addressing other reasons why they haven't enlisted (e.g. worries that their family will be taken care of while they're away).

I addressed that in a later post. That case is still evil.

If the cause is a good one, the government is trustworthy, and the people's concerns are addressed (e.g. what will happen to their families while they're gone), people will enlist. Conscription is only necessary when at least one of those pieces is missing.

Well I don't totally disagree. There should be exemptions available if necessary. I certainly think so. But some would say that it's duty rather than slavery that makes a citizen liable for service.

In many ancient cultures it was the freeman that was liable for military service; not the slave. The slave was not entrusted with weapons.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you'd be exempt from the service you'd require of others?

No.

 

[Rival]

So you'd be exempt from the service you'd require of others?

Some are. I may yet not make it into the military, but I support conscription albeit rather broadly defined. At the minute, every child in the western world is forced to go to school, which, as we know, is doing rather a poor job and you aren't allowed to opt out; even homeschooling is being curtailed. The military or health fields are far more useful in the long run as pertains to life skills, job prospects, meeting people and becoming a healthier, better person.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I work for a living voluntarily. If we're talking about a system where you're required to work at a job assigned to you by the government, and if you refuse, you go to prison or are denied rights like voting, then we're talking about slavery.

Temporary slavery is still slavery.

If you don't work, there's major negative consequences such as homelessness and destitution. That's not a free choice. You are compelled to work.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well I don't totally disagree. There should be exemptions available if necessary. I certainly think so. But some would say that it's duty rather than slavery that makes a citizen liable for service.

Then appeal to that sense of duty. But as soon as you start talking about locking people up for disobeying the draft, you're talking about slavery.

In many ancient cultures it was the freeman that was liable for military service; not the slave. The slave was not entrusted with weapons.

In feudal society, nobody but the monarch was truly free. Everybody was somebody's vassal, including fighting men.