Conscription - good or bad?

[Valjean]

No one has the freedom to live as they want. I also didn't say that the service had to be the military or even that it had to be a combat position in the military. There's medical, R&D, etc. positions. I think tests and the person's disposition would help determine their placement.

Good points, but I do think freedom should be supported, to the degree practicable. I also think a period of voluntary public service would be a good thing. I don't think compulsory service, though, would be either necessary or fair.

 

[Sunstone]

Ah -- my personal choice for worst film ever...

I thought the movie, Starship Troopers, was a hilarious, sarcastic put-down of the book

 

[Revoltingest]

If you don't work, there's major negative consequences such as homelessness and destitution. That's not a free choice. You are compelled to work.

Your argument appears to be.....
- We must work to support ourselves, therefore we are not free.
- Because we're not free, government owns the right to force us to work for them.

So....if government can own us for several years, why not for life?

 

[Valjean]

If you don't work, there's major negative consequences such as homelessness and destitution. That's not a free choice. You are compelled to work.

Unless, of course, you're daddy's rich. Then you can be one of the country's leaders, or just sit by the pool and bask in the privilege.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some are. I may yet not make it into the military, but I support conscription albeit rather broadly defined. At the minute, every child in the western world is forced to go to school, which, as we know, is doing rather a poor job and you aren't allowed to opt out; even homeschooling is being curtailed. The military or health fields are far more useful in the long run as pertains to life skills, job prospects, meeting people and becoming a healthier, better person.

I'd rather chart my own course than have government assign it to me.

It's all a matter of philosophy...
Who owns us?
Do we own ourselves, or do we belong to
government, who may do with us what it will?
It's individualism vs the hive mentality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you don't work, there's major negative consequences such as homelessness and destitution. That's not a free choice. You are compelled to work.

Do you understand the difference between the natural consequences of our choices and the government instituting artificial punishments for certain choices? It seems like you don't.

Edit: and I'm not compelled to work in the job I have. I'm free to quit at any time and seek employment elsewhere (or not seek employment and live off my savings).

 

[Valjean]

I thought the movie, Starship Troopers, was a hilarious, sarcastic put-down of the book

I never read the book -- perhaps cause I saw the movie first.
I found the film depicted a dark, hierarchical, dystopian police state, and I still don't know what that war was all about -- or which side was wearing the white hats.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Your argument appears to be.....
- We must work to support ourselves, therefore we are not free.
- Because we're not free, government owns the right to force us to work for them.

So....if government can own us for several years, why not for life?

The State and the people aren't some separate things. The State represents and works for the people. It channels the will of the people to provide direction, unity, order and support. At least that's how I think it should be. So saying the "government owns you" doesn't make sense to me. It's not an outside entity you have no stake in, like being a bagger at Walmart.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you understand the difference between the natural consequences of our choices and the government instituting artificial punishments for certain choices? It seems like you don't.

Edit: and I'm not compelled to work in the job I have. I'm free to quit at any time and seek employment elsewhere (or not seek employment and live off my savings).

Homelessness is an artificial punishment made up by society for lack of employment. Where in the world do you get that it's "natural"? There's thousands of empty apartments and houses. What's "natural" about being told by a landlord who doesn't even live there or cop that you can't occupy one? You don't make sense.

 

[Sunstone]

I never read the book -- perhaps cause I saw the movie first.
I found the film depicted a dark, hierarchical, dystopian police state, and I still don't know what that war was all about -- or which side was wearing the white hats.

I read the book when I was 16 or so. I thought it made sense. A few years later, I had learned enough about life to see how stupid it was. The movie struck me as a pretty obvious put down of the book.

 

[Rival]

The State and the people aren't some separate things. The State represents and works for the people. It channels the will of the people to provide direction, unity, order and support. At least that's how I think it should be. So saying the "government owns you" doesn't make sense to me. It's not an outside entity you have no stake in, like being a bagger at Walmart.

The truly ironic thing about conscription is that the government is literally having every citizen learn how to use a gun, survive in the wild, and basically renege against them if they wanted to, so I'd say that's a pretty trusting government.

 

[Revoltingest]

The State and the people aren't some separate things. The State represents and works for the people. It channels the will of the people to provide direction, unity, order and support. At least that's how I think it should be. So saying the "government owns you" doesn't make sense to me. It's not an outside entity you have no stake in, like being a bagger at Walmart.

I imagine that you approved of the "will of the people"
sending conscripts to kill & be killed in Viet Nam as
a good thing....the people wanted it, after all.
Those conscripts weren't free anyway, as you said.

Seeing the state & the people as one, is there any
limit to what the state can do to individuals?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh, and I find the society in Starship Troopers to be very inspiring, myself. I love the movies, too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Homelessness is an artificial punishment made up by society for lack of employment. Where in the world do you get that it's "natural"? There's thousands of empty apartments and houses. What's "natural" about being told by a landlord who doesn't even live there or cop that you can't occupy one? You don't make sense.

"Natural" in the sense of market forces... though FWIW, I also support proposals for a universal basic income.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I imagine that you approved of the "will of the people"
sending conscripts to kill & be killed in Viet Nam as
a good thing....the people wanted it, after all.
Those conscripts weren't free anyway, as you said.

Seeing the state & the people as one, is there any
limit to what the state can do to individuals?

Why use Vietnam as your example? Why not WWII?

Depends on if the person is fulfilling their duties to the State.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Unless, of course, you're daddy's rich. Then you can be one of the country's leaders, or just sit by the pool and bask in the privilege.

No, no exemptions for class. If you don't fulfill your duty, you wouldn't even be eligible for serving in the government in my ideal society.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why use Vietnam as your example? Why not WWII?

Do you think that conscription in WWII was okay? I don't.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you think that conscription in WWII was okay? I don't.

I'm fine with the draft, which should be obvious by my comments. Women and LGBT people should be subject to it as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why use Vietnam as your example? Why not WWII?

Why dodge the question?

Depends on if the person is fulfilling their duties to the State.

I fulfill mine without having been drafted into any war.
Do you see any limit on what the state can rightfully demand of an individual?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, no exemptions for class. If you don't fulfill your duty, you wouldn't even be eligible for serving in the government in my ideal society.

If you're assuming that the rich and the poor would suffer the impacts of conscription equally, then you seem to have an unwarranted trust that government isn't affected by corruption or favouritism.