Conscription - good or bad?

[Valjean]

Well I don't totally disagree. There should be exemptions available if necessary. I certainly think so. But some would say that it's duty rather than slavery that makes a citizen liable for service.

In many ancient cultures it was the freeman that was liable for military service; not the slave. The slave was not entrusted with weapons.

And here's the cause of it all: Duty.
Why should we owe any duty to king or country? No-one's born a vassal. We're born free and unencumbered by duty or obligation.

What gives any person or organization the right to order me to do something I conscientiously object to?
Duty to anything but principle is fraught with danger. Nationalism and "just following orders" has generated little but misery.

Remember "What if they gave a war and no-one came?" -- That's what would happen if people renounced personal or national duty.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm fine with the draft, which should be obvious by my comments. Women and LGBT people should be subject to it as well.

IMO, conscription is evil enough that goodness is not served by subjecting more people to it in the name of making it equitable.

Edit: please explain why you think the WWII draft was okay.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm fine with the draft, which should be obvious by my comments. Women and LGBT people should be subject to it as well.

You have the right to enlist, but you'd go further by
forcing others to fight in wars against their will.

It's also a matter of perspective. You've never been
subject to the draft. You're even exempt from registering.
But some of us faced a choice of prison, Viet Nam or
Canuckistan. It was an illuminating experience.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you're assuming that the rich and the poor would suffer the impacts of conscription equally, then you seem to have an unwarranted trust that government isn't affected by corruption or favouritism.

There would be laws and other measures in place to prevent that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There would be laws and other measures in place to prevent that.

... you hope. Unwarrantedly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why dodge the question?

I fulfill mine without having been drafted into any war.
Do you see any limit on what the state can rightfully demand of an individual?

I'm not sure. You'd have to ask me specifically. I'm not quite a totalitarian, though.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You have the right to enlist, but you'd go further by
forcing others to fight in wars against their will.

It's also a matter of perspective. You've never been
subject to the draft. You're even exempt from registering.
But some of us faced a choice of prison, Viet Nam or
Canuckistan. It was an illuminating experience.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say that the civil service doesn't have to be in the military, or a combat position in the military. You and others are putting words in my mouth. It doesn't have to be in military, or in a combat position in the military. Not everyone is eligible for military service (I'm probably not because of health issues, sadly) so I would want to give the most amount of people a chance to be included by having non-military options.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not sure how many times I have to say that the civil service doesn't have to be in the military, or a combat position in the military. You and others are putting words in my mouth. It doesn't have to be in military, or in a combat position in the military. Not everyone is eligible for military service (I'm probably not because of health issues, sadly) so I would want to give the most amount of people a chance to be included by having non-military options.

But you'd force someone to be in the military.
Some people would bear terrible burdens, perhaps even agonizing death.
While others would sit around campfires roasting marshmallows & singing
Kumbaya with poor inner city children.
Under your system, someone gets royally screwed for the benefit of the state.
Sounds ripe for violent revolution.

And by what right does the state take ownership over us?
It's by threat of force.

 

[Valjean]

Oh, and I find the society in Starship Troopers to be very inspiring, myself. I love the movies, too.

I remember when we used to criticize the Soviets for putting the interests of The State before the rights of the individual. We equated this with non-freedm.

 

[Revoltingest]

I remember when we used to criticize the Soviets for putting the interests of The State before the rights of the individual. We equated this with non-freedm.

Be careful about citing the USSR as a bad example.
For many people, it was a utopia...everyone working
together to serve the state & the people. Oh, joy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But you'd force someone to be in the military.
Some people would bear terrible burdens, perhaps even agonizing death.
While others would sit around campfires roasting marshmallows & singing
Kumbaya with poor inner city children.
Under your system, someone gets royally screwed for the benefit of the state.
Sounds ripe for violent revolution.

Since when has there ever been a violent revolution over conscription? Many countries have it, included leading first world countries.

Anyway, enough people want to join the military as it is that it wouldn't require forcing people into it unless it was a national emergency. Your sort of anti-service views are a minority.

 

[Valjean]

Why use Vietnam as your example? Why not WWII?

Depends on if the person is fulfilling their duties to the State.

As I recall, all sides in that war were "fulfilling their duties to the state." Were they all 'good guys'? Was everyone doing what was right and proper?
Duty is to principle -- never to state.

Didn't the Nuremberg trials establish the principle in international law that conscience trumps duty; that it's wrong to follow an unconscionable order?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I remember when we used to criticize the Soviets for putting the interests of The State before the rights of the individual. We equated this with non-freedm.

Who is "we"? I'm an authoritian and dont really believe in liberal democracy. It's an idealistic system that doesn't really work. (Marxism has a similar issue of getting human nature wrong.) It's already falling apart, anyway.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As I recall, all sides in that war were "fulfilling their duties to the state." Were they all 'good guys'? Was everyone doing what was right and proper?
Duty is to principle -- never to state.

Didn't the Nuremberg trials establish the principle in international law that conscience trumps duty; that it's wrong to follow an unconscionable order?

Now you're comparing conscription with the Holocaust?! You better go tell the Swedes and the Swiss about their moral atrocity, then.

 

[Revoltingest]

Since when has there ever been a violent revolution over conscription? Many countries have it, included leading first world countries.

We had violent riots during the Civil War.

Anyway, enough people want to join the military as it is that it wouldn't require forcing people into it unless it was a national emergency. Your sort of anti-service views are a minority.

Nearly all of my views are in the minority.
Minority vs majority.....this is really the crux of the matter here, eh.
A majority decided that a minority should do all the fighting for
miserable pay & the loss of civil liberties. Most voters weren't
eligible for the draft...women, trans folk, older people.
Tis easy to enslave someone else to do what one can't or won't.

 

[Valjean]

There would be laws and other measures in place to prevent that.

Historically, the laws tend to be made by and for the rich. The rich, historically, have been happy to exploit the poor.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Historically, the laws tend to be made by and for the rich. The rich, historically, have been happy to exploit the poor.

No ****. Guess what my feelings about capitalism and classism are.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since when has there ever been a violent revolution over conscription? Many countries have it, included leading first world countries.

Conscription in the militia was one of the grievances that led to the French Revolution.

And for a violent uprising in your own country, there's this example:
New York City draft riots - Wikipedia

 

[Valjean]

Who is "we"? I'm an authoritian and dont really believe in liberal democracy. It's an idealistic system that doesn't really work. (Marxism has a similar issue of getting human nature wrong.) It's already falling apart, anyway.

Maybe we should give it a chance to work, sometime. Didn't America's golden age occur at it's point of maximum liberal democracy?
I'm not so sure Marxism wouldn't work, but, so far, it's only being tried on a small scale.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Conscription in the militia was one of the grievances that led to the French Revolution.

And for a violent uprising in your own country, there's this example:
New York City draft riots - Wikipedia

Um, Wikipedia says it was more of a race riot than really about the draft.