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Consequences of converting from Islam

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
"Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him" Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57

I have three points to make:

1. A hadith like the one you cite, or other similar ahadith, lack the interpretive context necessary to situate it properly in the fiqh. A fuller rendition of the report may be found in the Muwatta:

It is related from ‘Ikrima that ‘Ali burnt some people and that reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If it had been me, I would not have burned them because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘Do not punish with Allah’s punishment.’ I would have killed them as the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘If someone changes his religion, kill him.’” [Book 21, 15]

The context is somewhat muddled here, as someone else is narrating Ibn 'Abbas' reference to something the Prophet said in the past tense in a rather complicated scenario. Without wanting to stick my nose in the 'ulum al-hadith it seems plausible that the Prophet was speaking in reference to the saboteurs who made a theatrical outward show of conversion to Islam only to revert back to Polytheism with equal show, or more seriously, to discover the Muslim's military weaknesses and report back to the enemy during the war between the Meccan and Yathrib/Medina. Whatever the context it cannot be summoned as a warrant for personal anarchy and violence against people who are deemed to have "changed their religion."

2. The following is an example of how the Prophet dealt with solely apostasy.

A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good. [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318]

Notably, as Dr. M. E. Subhani explained in his book:
“This was an open case of apostasy. But the Prophet neither punished the Bedouin nor asked anyone to do it. He allowed him to leave Madina (of his own will). Nobody harmed him.” [Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24.]

3. Some people accepted Islam during the period of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, who is called the fifth rightful caliph of Islam. All these people renounced Islam sometimes later. Maimoon bin Mahran the governor of the area wrote to the caliph about these people. In reply Umar bin Abdul Aziz ordered him to release those people and asked him to re-impose jizya on them. [Musannaf Abdur Razzaq, pp. 171-10, cited in M. E. Subhani,Apostasy in Islam (New Delhi, India: Global Media Publications, 2005), pp. 23-24. Abdur Razzaq ibn Humama (d. 211 AH). This is the earliest musannaf (a hadith collection arranged in topical chapters) work in existence.]


One more point worth mentioning. In the hadith in point 1, the word religion has been brazenly translated from the Arabic word "din". This is a mistranslation, as din does not stand for religion properly, but it "sort of" means way of life. (Cf dharma). The Arabic language does not even have a word for religion, strictly speaking: the word din, customarily translated as such, differs in significant important respects from the European concept. (See, The Meaning and end of religion by W.C. Smith).

I should add the first part of my response is actually taken from a similar question I had raised on another forum.

More information is available here.

Regards
 
Last edited:

Me Myself

Back to my username
Yes but if you believe in nothing, then you have nothing, which also means that you are nothing. Because to be able to distinct right from wrong is a moral decision and if you believe in nothing and sit there and borrow from moral beliefs then that means that you are confused. Because you have no foundation that's stable enough to claim to have invented a moral decision. Atheist borrow morals to make up their own belief system in their own heads.

1- You have no idea of what you are talking about

2- If you want to have no idea about you are talking about in the correct thread, search for it, because this one is not about the subject you are currently speaking.

thanks in advance :)
 
The Quran does not say, but people in the Middle East are often persecuted for leaving Islam.

That's not what I asked.

I asked for Qur'anic evidence. This is the Qur'anic debate anyways.

Already, it says in the Qur'an, there is no compulsion in religion.

The Qur'an actually respects other religious beliefs, and this is shown by Ismailis, Ahmadis and Sufis, Qur'anists and liberal Muslims.

"Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."

-- Chapter 109
 

IsmailaGodHasHeard

Well-Known Member
That's not what I asked.

I asked for Qur'anic evidence. This is the Qur'anic debate anyways.

Already, it says in the Qur'an, there is no compulsion in religion.

The Qur'an actually respects other religious beliefs, and this is shown by Ismailis, Ahmadis and Sufis, Qur'anists and liberal Muslims.

"Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."

-- Chapter 109
Let me say this again: When people leave Islam, they are often persecuted, no what belief they replace it with.
 
Let me say this again: When people leave Islam, they are often persecuted, no what belief they replace it with.

And let me ask again, so where is it in the original Qur'an to do so?

The Christians have killed lots of people for leaving Christianity and joining Islam and Judaism in its heyday of power. Islam in the Middle-East is experiencing its dark age.

However countries like Turkey and Indonesia, where they are both officially Islamic, are not tyrannical in change of religion.
 

IsmailaGodHasHeard

Well-Known Member
And let me ask again, so where is it in the original Qur'an to do so?

The Christians have killed lots of people for leaving Christianity and joining Islam and Judaism in its heyday of power. Islam in the Middle-East is experiencing its dark age.

However countries like Turkey and Indonesia, where they are both officially Islamic, are not tyrannical in change of religion.

True Christians do not do those things.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I am not an atheist, but what make you think that rape (of girl or woman) would be acceptable to atheists?

i think that is the point of the question

You have a morality regardless of your belief in God....but from where did it come? Animals do not have such a morality...they live by instincts which make rape a perfectly normal form of procreation....even if it means killing the offspring of the female in order to do it

So if humans are simply a product of nature, then where do our morals come from and why do we even have them in the first place?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
i think that is the point of the question

You have a morality regardless of your belief in God....but from where did it come? Animals do not have such a morality...they live by instincts which make rape a perfectly normal form of procreation....even if it means killing the offspring of the female in order to do it

So if humans are simply a product of nature, then where do our morals come from and why do we even have them in the first place?

This is material for a new thread.
 
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