Conversion Therapy (Article)

[ADigitalArtist]

One doesn't need to make it a special case. Gay rights, to this day, have not been well received in Communist societies, period.

I do agree with you that it is more about "othering", however and is prevalent in all societies throughout the ages. It's only been in recent decades that attitudes have begun to change in the more open societies, globally speaking.

I agree.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Or just 'an authority,' religious or otherwise. Trying to make Soviet a 'special case' is just special pleading.

Not really - they are backward in many other ways. And the country is only 300 million (150 million for Russia), compared with Islam, 2 billion, and which has been around since the 7th century. We can balance these? One a religious belief and one just ignorance.

 

[YmirGF]

A pew survey recently showed that homosexuality 'should be discouraged' rose by 10% in 10 years and is continuing to climb. To say nothing of atheist movements like new atheists members and leaders showing some pretty transphobic beliefs. Of course #notallatheists but also #notallreligious.

As a member of the gay community and an avowed atheist I reject the use of the term "transphobia" in virtually all cases. I've yet to encounter anyone who has an unrealistic fear of trans humans. I have met a number of people who are very uncomfortable with the loopier ideas coming out the acedemia's Gender Studies departments however.

 

[Mock Turtle]

One doesn't need to make it a special case. Gay rights, to this day, have not been well received in Communist societies, period.

But that is only relatively recent - that is, whilst communism was in authority.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Not really - they are backward in many other ways. And the country is only 300 million (150 million for Russia), compared with Islam, 2 billion, and which has been around since the 7th century.

I'm not just counting Russia but other equally oppressive anti-theistic regimes who were not better for their lack of religion.
And, again, not all of that 2 billion Muslims are anti-lgbt.
Islam's LGBT allies | musliminstitute.org
American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

 

[ADigitalArtist]

As a member of the gay community and an avowed atheist I reject the use of the term "transphobia" in virtually all cases. I've yet to encounter anyone who has an unrealistic fear of trans humans. I have met a number of people who are very uncomfortable with the loopier ideas coming out the acedemia's Gender Studies departments however.

A lot of people reject the terms homophobia or xenophobia on the same reasoning. But phobia doesn't mean fear, it's also an irrational hatred or aversion. I could link plenty of blogs of new atheists or leadership of organizations like scientific american displaying those sorts of behavior.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I'm not just counting Russia but other equally oppressive anti-theistic regimes who were not better for their lack of religion.
And, again, not all of that 2 billion Muslims are anti-lgbt.
Islam's LGBT allies | musliminstitute.org
American Muslims Are Now More Accepting Of Homosexuality Than White Evangelicals

Fine. But historically, religions have been an authority opposing homosexuality - slightly different than mere ignorance.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

But that is only relatively recent - that is, whilst communism was in authority.

Why does being recent matter? JWs are also recent but you were happy to use it as an example of anti-lgbt behavior among religious.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Why does being recent matter? JWs are also recent but you were happy to use it as an example of anti-lgbt behavior among religious.

Because it is just that - a blip in history rather than a long trend. I couldn't be bothered searching out all the other religions where this might be a problem. Many JWs on here are making that point.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Fine. But historically, religions have been an authority opposing homosexuality - slightly different than mere ignorance.

Historically anti-religious governments have been an authority opposing homosexuality.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Historically anti-religious governments have been an authority opposing homosexuality.

So they, along with the religious were causing all the strife? Look, I have a nice round number (30) of points against religions. Think I'm going to remove one? Not on your nelly!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So they, along with the religious were causing all the strife? Look I have a nice round number (30) of points against religions. Think I'm going to remove one? Not on your nelly!

Human nature causes strife. Traditionalism perpetuates it. There is no group of humans, including atheists, who are immune to traditionalism. There is no group of humans, including the religious, who are incapable of rejecting it. Stereotypes and generalizations help no-one. It entrenches the opposition and alienates allys.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Human nature causes strife. Traditionalism perpetuates it. There is no group of humans, including atheists, who are immune to traditionalism. There is no group of humans, including the religious, who are incapable of rejecting it. Stereotypes and generalizations help no-one. It entrenches the opposition and alienates allys.

If religions didn't have such a negative effect on so many I wouldn't be arguing - but they do. 85% is hardly insignificant to be concerned at what they tend to espouse - as fact - even if they tend to disagree for much of the time.

 

[YmirGF]

A lot of people reject the terms homophobia or xenophobia on the same reasoning. But phobia doesn't mean fear, it's also an irrational hatred or aversion. I could link plenty of blogs of new atheists or leadership of organizations like scientific american displaying those sorts of behavior.

As I say, I have not personally met a single person who has expressed any kind of hatred for trans humans. And sorry, my usage is more accurate:

Phobia:

- An extreme or irrational fear is known as a phobia
- A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, defined by a persistent fear of an object or situation
- A phobia is an exaggerated and irrational fear.

Nowhere does it say hatred, though in extreme cases, I suppose it could morph into a hatred.

I had no idea that Xenophobes and homophobes were bridling at the loopier ideas coming out of the Gender Studies departments. Learn something new every day.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If religions didn't have such a negative effect on so many I wouldn't be arguing - but they do. 85% is hardly insignificant to be concerned at what they tend to espouse - as fact - even if they tend to disagree for much of the time.

Once again, I see no evidence that the problem isn't much bigger than religion. And telling the billions of people whose religions aren't contributing to the problem (again, most of the people who support gay rights by popular vote world wide are religious) that 'religion is the problem' is both disingenuous and disenfranchising.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Once again, I see no evidence that the problem isn't much bigger than religion. And telling the billions of people whose religions aren't contributing to the problem (again, most of the people who support gay rights by popular vote world wide are religious) that 'religion is the problem' is both disingenuous and disenfranchising.

We will have to agree to disagree then since I just don't see it that way. Without religions we might have advanced much better.

 

[YmirGF]

We will have to agree to disagree then since I just don't see it that way. Without religions we might have advanced much better.

But our various societies DID grow out of religious indoctrination so isn't the point is pretty well moot? N'est pas? There is simply no evidence that a religion free society would do any better, especially if said society was not as "modern" as our own.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

As I say, I have not personally met a single person who has expressed any kind of hatred for trans humans. And sorry, my usage is more accurate:

Phobia:

- An extreme or irrational fear is known as a phobia
- A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, defined by a persistent fear of an object or situation
- A phobia is an exaggerated and irrational fear.

Nowhere does it say hatred, though in extreme cases, I suppose it could morph into a hatred.

I had no idea that Xenophobes and homophobes were bridling at the loopier ideas coming out of the Gender Studies departments. Learn something new every day.

Various full dictionary definitions:
"An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."
"extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group."
And from Miriam:
"phobia
noun combining form
Definition of -phobia
1: exaggerated fear of
2: intolerance or aversion for "

"Definition of transphobia
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender or transsexual people

• We're also seeing historic levels oftransphobia—discrimination, hate speech and violent, even fatal attacks on transgender women and men.
• —Terry O'Neill, The Huffington Post, 8 Sept. 2014

—
transphobic
play \ˌtran(t)s-ˈfō-bik, ˌtranz-\adjective

• • transphobic comments
  • … people fleeing homophobic or transphobic persecution.
  • —Mary O'Hara, The Guardian (London), 16 July 2014"

 

[Mock Turtle]

But our various societies DID grow out of religious indoctrination so isn't the point is pretty well moot? N'est pas? There is simply no evidence that a religion free society would do any better, especially if said society was not as "modern" as our own.

The point is, that religions had authority over others - slightly different from us developing as we might regardless - so I think it perfectly legitimate to say they held us back in this regard - the major faiths at least - few were exactly sympathetic towards homosexuality.

 

[YmirGF]

Dictionary definitions are lay usage, not technical usage. But even then, just googling a couple dictionaries:
"An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."
"extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group."
And from Miriam:
"phobia
noun combining form
Definition of -phobia
1: exaggerated fear of
2: intolerance or aversion for "

"Definition of transphobia
:
—
transphobic
play \ˌtran(t)s-ˈfō-bik, ˌtranz-\adjective

• • transphobic comments
  • … people fleeing homophobic or transphobic persecution.
  • —Mary O'Hara, The Guardian (London), 16 July 2014"

Thanks for proving my point. Nowhere do I see the word hatred save for an online columnist ranting about the "hate" speech, which is itself a peculiar term because it can mean vastly different things across populations.