Convince me that God is loving

[Trailblazer]

None. This is a argument borne of depression. God is not a human.

No, it is not born of depression, it is born of logical thinking.
It does not matter if God is a human.
What 'reason' is there to believe that God is loving aside from what scriptures say?
If there is no reason to believe it why should I believe it, just because Baha'u'llah said God is loving?
Sorry, that is not good enough for me.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a dead end for you. No one can prove that without scriptures being involved, in my opinion. I can't help you in that way. Caring for you is the only way.

I am glad that you admit that no one can prove that without scriptures being involved.
It is not a dead end for me because I do not need to believe that God is loving.
If God is loving then God is loving, and what I believe does not make any difference.
That is logic 101 stuff.

You caring for me does not prove God is loving, it only shows that you are loving.

 

[Trailblazer]

Purely be using the rational, that is impossible, in my opinion. I feel helpless. I can't do anything for you in this arena. I am sad.

Why are you sad Duane? How many dozens of times have I told you that I do not need to believe that God is loving?
Why do you think you know what I need to believe?

You somehow think it would make a difference in my life if I believed that God is loving, but it would make no difference.
As I said in my OP, this is not about me loving God, this is about whether God is loving or not. I can still love God even if I do not believe He is loving, just as I loved Lewis even when he was not loving.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It seems "God is Love" can't be proven
with or without Scriptures
to another person.

And that is kind of obvious to me

Whenever I come across or meet spiritual friendly and open hearted people , I see God’s love reflected in them. You treat me like a brother and as an equal and often to blame for that is a loving God Who wants us all to get along with each other.

I am not only grateful to God for sending us all the Holy Educators from Christ, Muhammad, Buddha and Krishna but also Sanatana Dharma because it causes the love of God to shines and makes you a brother to all.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me I knew God loved me because He sent Baha’u’llah to humanity and I was blest to have recognised Him. It’s about whether God loves us or not and to me sending us Manifestations is a very great act of love. So whether I suffered or not, to my understanding I got the greatest gift I could have received in my life courtesy of God. This gift is offered all but people do not understand yet that true happiness and freedom will come when we obey God’s laws.

If God loves me He loves me, and my belief will not change a thing.
It makes no difference to God if 'I believe' He loves me. God is not a human who needs to know I believe He loves me.

I do not need to believe that God loves me because I do not need to feel loved by God. It seems strange to me that so many people have a need to feel God loves them. I cannot understand why.

To me it is not about whether God loves me or not, it is about whether I love God or not.
I can love God and obey His laws even if I do not believe God is loving.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If God loves me He loves me, and my belief will not change a thing.
It makes no difference to God if 'I believe' He loves me. God is not a human who needs to know I believe He loves me.

I do not need to believe that God loves me because I do not need to feel loved by God. It seems strange to me that so many people have a need to feel God loves them. I cannot understand why.

To me it is not about whether God loves me or not, it is about whether I love God or not.
I can love God and obey His laws even if I do not believe God is loving.

You asked to be convinced that God is loving so I answered that for me the greatest proof that He is loving is that He sends us Manifestations Who we do terrible things to. I’m grateful, very grateful to Him and so feel the love and naturally want to reciprocate.

I think it does make a difference to God as the reason for our existence is to be God’s lover. You’ve got to hear God’s side of the argument if you want to be fair and He said He breathed His Spirit in us so we would be His lover. So God is so consumed with love that He even created humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Truthseeker

I really don't want to bring this up but I feel a need to try to straighten this out.
The reason I do not believe God is loving is not because I am depressed over the death of Lewis. Many a night he and I discussed whether God is loving or not and I told him I do not believe God is loving. He always insisted that God is loving because Baha'u'llah wrote that. He told me I am not really a Baha'i if I don't believe what Baha'u'llah wrote and I should become an atheist. Then during the last months of his life when he was in so much pain he told me I was right, God is not loving.

I am so sick of talking about this. I wish I could become an atheist right now and then I would not have to think about whether God is loving anymore. Who cares? Only you, and other people who need to feel loved by God. That seems selfish to be which is probably why I am offended by it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You asked to be convinced that God is loving so I answered that for me the greatest proof that He is loving is that He sends us Manifestations Who we do terrible things to. I’m grateful, very grateful to Him and so feel the love and naturally want to reciprocate.

I think it does make a difference to God as the reason for our existence is to be God’s lover. You’ve got to hear God’s side of the argument if you want to be fair and He said He breathed His Spirit in us so we would be His lover. So God is so consumed with love that He even created humans.

Yes, maybe sending the Manifestations shows that God is loving.

God does not need a lover, as God has no needs. You have turned God into a human being.
God has no partners and needs no partners because God is self-subsisting.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

It is easy to see this from a psychological standpoint. It is you who has the need for God to be your lover, it is not God who needs that. God has no needs.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, maybe sending the Manifestations shows that God is loving.

God does not need a lover, as God has no needs. You have turned God into a human being.
God has no partners and needs no partners because God is self-subsisting.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

It is easy to see this from a psychological standpoint. It is you who has the need for God to be your lover, it is not God who needs that. God has no needs.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Yes of course I fully acknowledge God is in no need of us but that it is us who need Him.

As you have quoted scripture I hope it’s ok for me to mention a passage. It’s very mystical but although God does not have needs He has ‘desires’. So He ‘desires’ us to be His lover although He does not need our love. Interesting isn’t it?

He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body.

— Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts


“O Son of the
Wondrous Vision!

I have breathed within
thee a breath of My own Spirit, that thou mayest be My lover. Why hast thou forsaken Me and sought a beloved other than Me?”

 

[Brian2]

So what? I would have never known the difference, and besides, having cats has been a double-edged sword, given all the cats that have gotten sick and died.

Yes love is a double edged sword. People let us down just like the cats.
We also think that God has let us down at times.

 

[nPeace]

Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Convince me that you are reasonable, rational, humble, and honest with yourself... and us.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

You don't have to believe anything.
The Bible says you should "prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2)
I think that's reasonable, and I also think it's reasonable that God gives us the option to choose our outcome.
(Deuteronomy 30:19) I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live. . .

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I think this is a property or an element we can use to determine if you are reasonable, rational, humble, and honest with yourself and us.

You said, it makes no sense to you. Yet, that is not what millions say.
So first off, are you willing to consider that because something doesn't make sense to you, that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, and perhaps you need to make sense of it?
Would you agree that sometimes our emotions tend to override our ability to accept something, which may very well be practical?
Sometimes too... our feelings do tend to prevent us from being honest with ourselves. Is that true?

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

I agree... much suffering can be avoided, and they are not warranted.
In fact, no mother needs to torture her baby, because she hates the father. No father needs to murder his children, because he hates life... and we could go on.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

Excellent! That certainly is reasonable, and makes sense, doesn't it?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

Okay. Let's see if you are indeed reasonable, rational, humble, and honest with yourself and us. Or if your emotions hinder these.

You said, "a person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person."

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, in order that those who exercise faith, might not perish... and we can add, nor suffer anymore... but have everlasting life, without pain, sorrow, or death. John 3:16, Revelation 21:3-4

By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:9-10

God and his firstborn - God's very beloved son - made the greatest sacrifice one could ever make - that of... in the case of God - allowing his son to be given over to humiliating torture, and spit, and finally death. In the case of the son, offering himself - a willing sacrifice - in behalf of the human race, which he so dearly loves.
That's the greatest love.

According to you, that's what love is.
It was shown. Do you accept it?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

The above is not evidence? What evidence are you looking for?

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

That's fine.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say.

I can speak for myself.
I did not know what love is. I was selfish - thinking only of what I wanted... what would make me happy.
That changed when I came to know God.

I came to know God - not that there is a true God. I already believe that, but I came to really know who God is, and knowing God - his qualities as seen in his dealings with us miserable human beings, and appreciating, what can be known of God, from his creative works, I was drawn to God.

I still have selfishness in me, which I continue to work hard to remove, because I understand that true love, is not about what I want, but it's about what is good - what is right... for all.
Paul explained that in 1 Corinthians 13
It's not about what makes me happy.

So I am trying not to focus on myself, which I realize is challenging, and I am endeavoring to have the mind of Christ - to immitate God, of which the Bible truthfully say... God is love. He that does not love, has not come to know God.

I have proven this. In fact, all of us prove this everyday.
The one who says they have love, or they know love, and does not love God, is really lying to himself, as is evidenced to me.

So I don't believe God is love, simply because the Bible says it. I know God is love, because I see it, in reality.
Apart from creation, I see God's love evident in his dealings with his people... not only past, but present.
The love and unity that exist among God's people would be impossible without God's word, and spirit. Galatians 5:22-23
The Bible itself is alive, because of holy spirit.

Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God.

That doesn't make sense Trailblazer.
Need to feel love, in order to love God?
If that were true, here is what would happen....
When we suffer, we would do like you, complain that God is not loving.
Remember Job? He suffered severely. Yet his wife's "reasoable" advice was considered as stupid.
When we suffer, we would reject God, as unloving, and because of not feeling loved by God, we would not love God.

Earlier, I said, it's not about what makes me happy. In fact, serving God can be very very difficult at times, and sometimes one has to endure serious discomfort.
I can imagine, it cannot be comfortable being in prison, and tortured for one's faith.

Do you see how irrational your reasoning has proven to be?
What does that tell us? Are you describing your own experience here.

I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.

Give the above some careful thought, and try convincing us that you are reasonable, rational, humble, and honest with yourself... and us.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.

Well, you were right that some people cannot explain to you why they believe God is loving without quoting the Bible or some texts regarding Baha'i beliefs. I don't think the arguments citing the Bible are convincing at all, and I doubt that you think they are either.

 

[nPeace]

I am so sick of talking about this. I wish I could become an atheist right now and then I would not have to think about whether God is loving anymore.

Who cares? Only you, and other people who need to feel loved by God. That seems selfish to be which is probably why I am offended by it.

Emotional pain bottled up for years causes serious repercussions.
It's good to have someone we can talk to, and really express our innermost feelings. Someone who would really listen.

Many do not believe God does listen to our prayers, and soothes our aching heart.
From what you have been saying for some time now, you don't, apparently.
If you aren't convinced, and no one can convince you... all I can say is... I am really sorry for your loss.

 

[nPeace]

It's either written, or it spoken by people who claim to know God.
We have a choice to either believe people, who can be misled by either their wicked heart, or liars which are all around, or what's written, which we can examine and prove its credibility.
On our own, we are nowhere.

 

[stvdv]

Whenever I come across or meet spiritual friendly and open hearted people , I see God’s love reflected in them. You treat me like a brother and as an equal and often to blame for that is a loving God Who wants us all to get along with each other.

I am not only grateful to God for sending us all the Holy Educators from Christ, Muhammad, Buddha and Krishna but also Sanatana Dharma because it causes the love of God to shines and makes you a brother to all.

Indeed, seeing God one has to do himself, I can't prove God to another. The other just has to open their eye

 

[PureX]

but I am not going to get it from God.....
All the love I get I get from people like you.

You can also love yourself.

Love is a choice. All you have to do is choose it. Then focus on it, practice at it, and revel in it. Same goes for the love of others.

 

[Colt]

Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.

God is Love. It is the lovable nature of God that leads him to give us life, free will and the desire to become like him, to love and serve others as he loves and serves us. He sends is spirit to live within us.

We can see Gods love in the Creator Son coming to earth and living the full life of one of his own created beings all that he might come a little closer to understanding his children's plight.

 

[Nimos]

but I am not going to get it from God.....
All the love I get I get from people like you.

You almost sound like an atheist now

 

[idea]

Whenever I come across or meet spiritual friendly and open hearted people , I see God’s love reflected in them. You treat me like a brother and as an equal and often to blame for that is a loving God Who wants us all to get along with each other.

I am not only grateful to God for sending us all the Holy Educators from Christ, Muhammad, Buddha and Krishna but also Sanatana Dharma because it causes the love of God to shines and makes you a brother to all.

Whenever I come across a kind, wise, understanding person I attribute their character to their own experience, their own background, their own path.

I think it is wrong to give credit where it is not due. There is no god. That is not why they are kind.

 

[nPeace]

God is Love. It is the lovable nature of God that leads him to give us life, free will and the desire to become like him, to love and serve others as he loves and serves us. He sends is spirit to live within us.

We can see Gods love in the Creator Son coming to earth and living the full life of one of his own created beings all that he might come a little closer to understanding his children's plight.

"...all that he might come a little closer to understanding his children's plight."
That's a really profound point.
I'm reminded of ...
(Hebrews 5:8-10) 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek.

(Hebrews 4:14-15) 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.