Convince me that God is loving

[Sgt. Pepper]

Interestingly, a book I have read before but am re-reading now, Heaven and Hell, written by a Christian, says that one does not have to be a Christian or even believe in God to 'get to heaven.' Rather, he says that getting into heaven is based upon one's values, what they consider important, which of course determines their behaviors and whether they are moral. Someday, if I ever get caught up on posts, I might post a new thread with a few excerpts from the book.

No, thank you. I'll pass on that. I don't want to spend eternity with an absentee "heavenly father," who is supposedly a loving and merciful God, as well as all-powerful and all-knowing, but still allows so many of his children to be abused, raped, die from a deadly disease or virus, be murdered in cold blood, or be brutally killed in some other way, such as in a natural disaster or by falling to their deaths off a cliff. I'd rather spend eternity alone than with the biblical God, who, according to the Bible, is angry and jealous and sends people to hell for an eternity of torment and suffering if they don't ask for his forgiveness and repent of allegedly sinning against him and for failing to conform to his arbitrary rules of adherence to his "divine will." I'd much rather spend an eternity guiding spirits into the spirit world alongside other compassionate human spirits that help out other human spirits who are afraid and confused, either in the physical world or in the spirit world. These spirit guides are far more compassionate and loving than the biblical God, who has clearly portrayed himself in the Old Testament of the Bible to be a very angry, jealous, narcissistic, sadistic, and genocidal psychopath.

 

[Brian2]

In a couple of days, I am going to a fellowship meeting for widows at a local church.
They will all be Christians, members of that church, but it is open to outsiders. Wish me luck!

Good luck.

 

[nPeace]

I never said I know who ALL the Christians are.

Come on Trailblazer.
I said...
I take it you are speaking for yourself, since you can't possibly know what Christians want to look at.
Why, you don't even know who are Christians.

...and you said.
I know who Christians are because they self-identify.
I know what they look at since they say what they look at.

Knock Knock. Is anyone there?
You don't know what Christians look at, and you don't know who are Christians. Okay?
You just want to act like you know. You don't.

No, when I see love I know it is love.

Great!
Yet, here are your exact words...
What you see around you is subject to your interpretation. I interpret it differently because I am a different person.
So why are you claiming that everyone else needs to interpret and have interpretations about these things?
Reasonable? No.

You think you do.

Oh. You don't. ...but everyone else does.
Are you learning anything about yourself here?

Just because millions of people believe that God is loving that does not mean it is true. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

Who said it is true because millions of people believe that God is loving?
Are you trying to make up an argument, in order to make an argument against?
That makes no sense.

It does not make sense to me so I cannot believe it. I have tried to make sense of it.
This is not coming from my emotions, it is coming from my mind.

This is not about what makes sense.
This has nothing to do with what is reasonable,
You keep demonstrating that. Let me highlight that for your benefit.
You said... Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.
Then you said... I did not claim it was a reasonable request...
How can you make an unreasonable request, and then claim that you are looking for an answer that makes sense to you?
Reasonable? No.

I do not accept that that was a sacrifice on the part of God since God did not give anything up in order to send Jesus.
Jesus was the Son of God but only in a symbolic sense. He was as a Son in relation to His Father, God.
God does not have offspring so God cannot have a firstborn.

I think here is a case of where you will again appeal to 'your interpretation' argument, but I have to remind you... you don't get to decide when something needs interpreting.
When we see it, we know it.
Hebrews 1:1-6; John 10:36-38
When we see the truth we know it is the truth.

You believe you know because of what the Bible says. How else would you know His dealings with His people?

No. I believe, because of what I see.
Remember, you know love when you see love.
I do also... even though that sounds foreign to you, because I am not you. but I don't need to interpret the love among God's people. I see it... and Jesus said that identifies his disciples.
The Bible says love is an asset of the fruitage of God's spirit.
That love being demonstrated, is evidence of God's love.
I do see evidence the Bible is true, as well.

In summary... Trailblazer, you have not convinced anyone that you are reasonable, rational, humble, and honest with yourself... and us.
To the contrary.

 

[samtonga43]

Drop dead positive, although you can twist the meanings of verses in order to believe that Jesus is God incarnate.

Tb, you say that NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God incarnate. you go on to say that you are "drop dead positive" about this.
Can you tell me how you explain the following…?
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
and
1 Timothy 1:15–17
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
and
John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”
When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. And the Jews understood exactly what He was claiming—deity. “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33) So they tried to stone Him. They were as shocked/ incredulous as you are, Tb, by this claim, by Jesus, to be God.
and
John 8:58 “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”
This refers back to This is a reference back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” Why would the Jews respond to this statement by Jesus by picking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy?
Answer: They heard Him say that He is God.

 

[samtonga43]

In a couple of days, I am going to a fellowship meeting for widows at a local church. They will all be Christians, members of that church, but it is open to outsiders. Wish me luck!

I am very glad that you are going to meet with people in real-life. Sharing a similar situation, face-to-face, can be enormously helpful, even when faith backgrounds are different. You will be in my prayers.

 

[samtonga43]

In a couple of days, I am going to a fellowship meeting for widows at a local church.
They will all be Christians, members of that church, but it is open to outsiders. Wish me luck!

They may not all be Christians, since it is open to outsiders.
Also, please don't assume that every 'member' of a church is a Christian.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Knock Knock. Is anyone there?
You don't know what Christians look at, and you don't know who are Christians. Okay?
You just want to act like you know. You don't.

Well, that's rude. Is speaking down to other people when you respond to their posts truly necessary? Whatever happened to treating others the way you want to be treated and loving your neighbor as yourself? One might assume that Christians, of all people, would be the most familiar with these Bible precepts, but from the looks of the above remarks and other rude replies to Trailblazer in this thread, that doesn't seem to be the case. I suppose treating others the way they want to be treated is a lost concept for some people.

 

[Alien826]

I'd much rather spend an eternity guiding spirits into the spirit world alongside other compassionate human spirits that help out other human spirits who are afraid and confused, either in the physical world or in the spirit world.

Just an aside, but did see the TV series Dead Like Me? It's presented in a humorous way, but it's very similar to what you describe. A young woman is killed and finds herself in spirit form on Earth. She is told that she has been given the job of greeting newly dead spirits, explaining to them what has happened (many don't understand they are dead and can't understand why people aren't aware of them) and guiding them to the the next stage ("the light"). The humor comes from those spirits that don't want to move because the they have unfinished business on Earth, and how she struggles to get them to leave. She's part of a group of similar people, and there is a leader who allocates the "clients" (they have some way of knowing when someone is going to die).

Obviously it was not intended to be serious, but what you describe reminded me of it.

Another thing, I find this idea to be attractive because one of my questions, and it's a big one, about an afterlife is "what will we do there"? A continuation of the struggles of this life, with learning and development, and the chance to help people seems a lot better than an eternity of playing harps or whatever. I prefer to think that the damaged people are cared for and healed, rather than punished for what they did on Earth.

In my picture of it, it's all part of the natural world and spirits are something that simply exist, without the need for a divine being.

Has your communication with spirits shed any light on this?

 

[Alien826]

Of course God knows that He knows everything. If God knows everything He has to know that He knows everything.

Oooh, circular reasoning. God knows everything because he knows everything. How would God know that he knows everything? All he could know is that everything he is aware of he understands, or similar. How could he determine that he is not embedded in a higher set of dimensions that he is not aware of, just as we are. Maybe there's a progression of gods, each nested within the next, like Russian dolls?

I think we can have opinions about God but we should not judge God since that is backwards, since it is God who judges us, not we Him. We can say good things or bad things about God but I don't think it is going to hurt God, although maybe God will be disappointed for our sakes if we say bad things and happy for us if we say good things. But regardless of what we say or don't say, I believe that God knows everything that is in our minds -- there is no hiding from God!

God has given us rules to live by, and supposedly judges us based on them. Why is it so wrong to point out that God breaks his own rules? That may not be true, or there may be a reasonable explanation, but why is it wrong for us to judge?

But God is not a 'someone' who stands by, since God is not a man. To compare God to a human and expect God to do what a human would do is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not equivalent to a human.

My issue with God not being loving is not because He does not come down to earth and rescue people who are suffering, it is because he created this earth in the first place, and it is a storehouse of suffering.

This is not about whether God is capable or truly loving or benevolent. Why would God come and rescue people from what He intentionally created? Think about it.

What you are saying is that God is not like us so we should not expect him to behave like us. I agree, but if that applies to ethics too, then where is your objective morality? "Don't do what I do, do as I say"? For example, you seem to be saying that God created the world and he is fine with the way it is, so he doesn't want to change it. Huh? That goes directly against any definition of love or benevolence that humans understand, and supposedly those definitions are given to us by God. It's one thing to say that God gives us rules for our lives and behaves as he will in his realm, but the suffering on Earth and the rules that apply to us both apply here and now.

You are a funny man. Why would I want to 'recover' from the belief that God exists?
Admittedly though, it has its pros and cons.

Addicts always (OK pretty much) need help to recover. Our door is always open.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Just an aside, but did see the TV series Dead Like Me? It's presented in a humorous way, but it's very similar to what you describe. A young woman is killed and finds herself in spirit form on Earth. She is told that she has been given the job of greeting newly dead spirits, explaining to them what has happened (many don't understand they are dead and can't understand why people aren't aware of them) and guiding them to the the next stage ("the light"). The humor comes from those spirits that don't want to move because the they have unfinished business on Earth, and how she struggles to get them to leave. She's part of a group of similar people, and there is a leader who allocates the "clients" (they have some way of knowing when someone is going to die).

Obviously it was not intended to be serious, but what you describe reminded me of it.

I've heard of this show, but I've never watched it. It sounds interesting, so I think I'll see if I can find a way to watch it online.

Another thing, I find this idea to be attractive because one of my questions, and it's a big one, about an afterlife is "what will we do there"? A continuation of the struggles of this life, with learning and development, and the chance to help people seems a lot better than an eternity of playing harps or whatever. I prefer to think that the damaged people are cared for and healed, rather than punished for what they did on Earth.

In my picture of it, it's all part of the natural world and spirits are something that simply exist, without the need for a divine being.

Has your communication with spirits shed any light on this?

According to my understanding and experience as a psychic medium, there are specific spirit guides who assist human spirits in communicating with the living and crossing over into the spirit world. I have encountered and conversed with spirit guides that I would describe as angelic, as well as with human spirits that I perceived to have attained a higher plane of existence on the other side. I've often worked with both of these spirit guides when I've had difficulty understanding a spirit's mental message or convincing a lost and confused spirit to cross over. As a medium, I feel as though I have a spiritual connection with these spirit guides whenever I am with them and conversing with them. I feel as if I know them. It's similar to the feeling I get when I personally know a good friend.

As well as being capable of visually seeing, audibly hearing, and feeling the presence of human spirits, I also have the gift of mental mediumship, which means that instead of clearly seeing and hearing a clear audible message from a spirit, some spirits will give me words, thoughts, images, and feelings that I will need to decipher and then piece together like a puzzle in order to properly convey their message. It’s like how photographs were once developed. The film is developed in a dark room, and as an image appears, you can get a sense of what it will be. That’s what I (and other mediums with mental mediumship) sometimes see when I receive a mental vision from a spirit. I'm watching hazy images develop, and I'm trying to figure out what they are. It's as if I'm looking through a heavy glass door, and while the outline of a person isn't entirely clear, it's quite clear to me that someone is standing on the other side.

Most of the time, however, I can sense the presence of a spirit before I see it. Sometimes I will see a spirit in a clear form, just as I see living people, but the spirit will be translucent, and it will be either a partial or full-body apparition. Other times I will see a spirit in a solid form, and the spirit will manifest and look like a living person, then vanish before my eyes or turn around and walk through a wall or a door. I've seen spirits like these over the years, and it has been in homes from the Civil War era, in Civil War museums, and on Civil War battlefields, which doesn't surprise me given the vast amounts of electromagnetic energy that these places possess. They are dressed in period clothing and have often been mistaken for reenactment actors or local residents who are into the history of the location. And while I've seen these spirits (also called full-body apparitions), most of the earthbound spirits I've seen are translucent.

 

[Trailblazer]

In summary... Trailblazer, you have not convinced anyone that you are reasonable, rational, humble, and honest with yourself... and us.
To the contrary.

This thread was not about me, it was about whether God is Loving..... You made it about me.

In summary... nPeace, you have not convinced anyone that you are behaving as a Christian is supposed to behave.
To the contrary.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[Trailblazer]

They may not all be Christians, since it is open to outsiders.
Also, please don't assume that every 'member' of a church is a Christian.

I guess I will find out when I get there...
If they are members of that church they have self-identified as a Christians. Who am I to question that?

 

[nPeace]

This thread was not about ME, it was about GOD..... You made it about me.

In summary... nPeace, you have not convinced anyone that you are behaving as a Christian is supposed to behave.

To the contrary.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Almost rated it funny.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

This thread was not about ME, it was about GOD..... You made it about me.

In summary... nPeace, you have not convinced anyone that you are behaving as a Christian is supposed to behave.

To the contrary.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

^ This. Well said.

The behavior of certain Christians towards you in this thread is, in my opinion, a terrible representation of Christianity. When I was a devout Christian, I used to say that the way Christians behave and treat others can either draw people closer to God or push them further away from God. At the time, I didn't know that my words would come true in my own life and that part of the reason I left Christianity was because most of the Christians I knew had mistreated, bullied, or even abused me, including my adoptive parents.

I think that the condescending remarks you pointed out, as well as the other ones I mentioned yesterday (see here), serve as a good reminder of why abandoning Christianity was the right decision for me. It seems to me that some Christians might benefit from rereading the biblical teachings of loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–39) and treating others the way you want to be treated (Matthew 7:12), as well as being the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world" (Matthew 5:13–16) and being ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20). Furthermore, the fruit of the Spirit, according to the Bible, is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22–23). I don't know about you, but I don't see any of these personal characteristics of how a follower of Christ should behave in either the post you quoted or the one I quoted in this thread yesterday.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd much rather spend an eternity guiding spirits into the spirit world alongside other compassionate human spirits that help out other human spirits who are afraid and confused, either in the physical world or in the spirit world.

I don't believe that heaven is what some Christians believe it is, floating around on clouds worshiping God for all of eternity. I cannot imagine anything more boring than that. Once, a long time ago in an office conversation my Christian coworker said she will be so happy in heaven, when she doesn't have to work anymore. What does she think she will be doing for all of eternity, sitting around on a cloud?

I believe that when you enter the spiritual world you will have the opportunity to continue the work you are doing here, helping out help out other human spirits who are afraid and confused. The book entitled Private Dowding by Wellesley Tudor Pole describes that work.

“I was very sorry to leave your world, but I have many friends here and can work usefully. I have no more regrets and shall hope to be of service in the borderland where thousands remain in ignorance and misery.”
Private Dowding, p. 72

What is in the book is congruent with what the Baha'i Writings say about how we will still have work to do. That was a relief for me because I cannot imagine anything worse than sitting around doing nothing for all of eternity.

“A friend asked: “How should one look forward to death?”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá answered: “How does one look forward to the goal of any journey? With hope and with expectation. It is even so with the end of this earthly journey. In the next world, man will find himself freed from many of the disabilities under which he now suffers. Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

In a couple of days, I am going to a fellowship meeting for widows at a local church.
They will all be Christians, members of that church, but it is open to outsiders. Wish me luck!

As your friend and a former evangelical Christian, I'd advise you to be cautious and on your guard if one or more of the Christians at that church attempt to persuade you to convert to Christianity. You never know, but I know that when wooing fails, some Christians will resort to fearmongering (hellfire and brimstone type threats) or gaslighting you by attempting to convince you that you've sinned against God and you need his forgiveness in order to be saved and go to heaven. As an ex-evangelical, I know how the game is played.

 

[Trailblazer]

^ This. Well said.

The behavior of certain Christians towards you in this thread is, in my opinion, a terrible representation of Christianity. When I was a devout Christian, I used to say that the way Christians behave and treat others can either draw people closer to God or push them further away from God. At the time, I didn't know that my words would come true in my own life and that part of the reason I left Christianity was because most of the Christians I knew had mistreated, bullied, or even abused me, including my adoptive parents.

I think that the condescending remarks you pointed out, as well as the other ones I mentioned yesterday (see here), serve as a good reminder of why abandoning Christianity was the right decision for me. It seems to me that some Christians might benefit from rereading the biblical teachings of loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–39) and treating others the way you want to be treated (Matthew 7:12), as well as being the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world" (Matthew 5:13–16) and being ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20). Furthermore, the fruit of the Spirit, according to the Bible, is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22–23). I don't know about you, but I don't see any of these personal characteristics of how a follower of Christ should behave in either the post you quoted or the one I quoted in this thread yesterday.

Surely, not all Christians are cut from the same cloth so to speak. Thankfully, I have only encountered two Christians on this forum who behave in a manner unbecoming of a Christian, and I think you know who they are. Calling them out, no matter how you do it, is a favor to them because at least it gives them a chance to examine their own behavior.

 

[Trailblazer]

As your friend and a former evangelical Christian, I'd advise you to be cautious and on your guard if one or more of the Christians at that church attempt to persuade you to convert to Christianity. You never know, but I know that when wooing fails, some Christians will resort to fearmongering (hellfire and brimstone type threats) or gaslighting you by attempting to convince you that you've sinned against God and you need his forgiveness in order to be saved and go to heaven. As a former evangelical, I know how the game is played.

I will surely be on my guard. It is awkward at best for a Baha'i to socialize with Christians but I will give it a chance, since I need fellowship, and the Baha'is don't have any groups like this. Luckily, I have had a lot of experience talking to Christians on forums so I know what not to say. It is always best to focus on what we believe in common rather than the differences.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Surely, not all Christians are cut from the same cloth so to speak. Thankfully, I have only encountered two Christians on this forum who behave in a manner unbecoming of a Christian, and I think you know who they are. Calling them out, no matter how you do it, is a favor to them because at least it gives them a chance to examine their own behavior.

I know a few who actually live the Christian faith they profess, but based on my own personal experiences as an ex-Christian of thirty years and what I experienced before that while growing up, I consider these caring Christians to be the exception and not the rule.

 

[Trailblazer]

Almost rated it funny.

which demonstrates that you completely missed the point.