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Convince me that God is loving

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
We can judge God is we want to, I have done it myself. It won't hurt God, although it might be detrimental to us..
Sadly, I think you are right.
If we listen to satan's whisperings regards "the problem of evil", suffering and so on, we get hurt .. which is satan's intention, of course. his wish is to destroy our iman / faith.

Yes, nothing can happen without the permission of God.
It is God that allows satan to deceive us .. it is satan that is responsible for the spread of evil.

Why does God allow it if He is all-loving, you might ask?
Life is not at all easy .. the test goes on until death.

The bottom line..
We can suffer, and believe that God loves us, and wishes us good.
We can suffer and believe that God doesn't care.

The former is correct, as it leads to everlasting success. :)

PS I hope your fellowship meeting goes well.
 

Madmogwai

Madmogwai
Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.
The problem is Abrahamic Religions talk about being granted free will, then complain when suffering enters their lives.
You want free will yet do not want to deal with the consequences of having free will.
you blame the self induced suffering on the fact that God does not intervene therefore cannot exist, easy to point the finger at God rather then get your own house in order.
As a Buddhist the suffering is due to karma, we do not blame anyone but ourselves and as individuals we will serve our Karma and learn from it and move onwards and upwards.
As long as you look to others or even a God to fix your issues you will never work on your issues as you see your faults as not being your fault.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The problem is Abrahamic Religions talk about being granted free will, then complain when suffering enters their lives.
You want free will yet do not want to deal with the consequences of having free will.
you blame the self induced suffering on the fact that God does not intervene therefore cannot exist, easy to point the finger at God rather then get your own house in order.
I never complained about the suffering that is caused by human free will decisions, I only ever complained about the suffering that is beyond our control, and clearly much of suffering is beyond our control, so it is not anyone's fault.

I never expected God to intervene and save humans from their bad decisions. I never expected God to intervene at all. That is what atheists would expect God to do, if He existed.
As a Buddhist the suffering is due to karma, we do not blame anyone but ourselves and as individuals we will serve our Karma and learn from it and move onwards and upwards.
As long as you look to others or even a God to fix your issues you will never work on your issues as you see your faults as not being your fault.
I do not believe in karma from past lives since I do not believe in reincarnation. Nothing could be more unjust.
We are only responsible for the one life we live and what we do with it.

As a Baha'i, I believe we make mistakes and learn from them and move onwards and upwards.
Baha'is are enjoined to look at our own faults, not the faults of others.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
No, thank you. I'll pass on that. I don't want to spend eternity with an absentee "heavenly father," who is supposedly a loving and merciful God, as well as all-powerful and all-knowing, but still allows so many of his children to be abused, raped, die from a deadly disease or virus, be murdered in cold blood, or be brutally killed in some other way, such as in a natural disaster or by falling to their deaths off a cliff.
Oh, I absolutely agree! I don't want to spend eternity with the god you describe either. Who would? :facepalm:
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
That's unfortunate. Let me know how the meeting goes. I'm curious to find out if any (or how many) attempt to convert you.
We have a group like this in my home church. To attempt to convert someone would be anathema to those who organize it.

You really oughtn't to assume that all churches and all Christians are like the ones you rightly rejected.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Baha'u'llah offered that if God set the duration of the fast at no limit, then a true believer would embrace that fast.

The rest would be up to us.

Regards Tony

Once again I'm going to ask you to explain.

What Baha'u'llah seems to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong , I don't have the full context) is that if God commanded us to starve ourselves to death (limitless fast?) we should obey it. Otherwise we should work things out for ourselves (not sure how that would apply if we were all starved to death). Or is it up to us to decided how long to fast? How does that apply to being commanded to perform an act that that has been expressly forbidden to us in other places?

My little parable was intended to point out a problem with saying that God has one morality for us and another for himself. It also applied to what @Trailblazer had said just before, and didn't have anything to do with fasting.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
The problem is Abrahamic Religions talk about being granted free will, then complain when suffering enters their lives.
You want free will yet do not want to deal with the consequences of having free will.
you blame the self induced suffering on the fact that God does not intervene therefore cannot exist, easy to point the finger at God rather then get your own house in order.
As a Buddhist the suffering is due to karma, we do not blame anyone but ourselves and as individuals we will serve our Karma and learn from it and move onwards and upwards.
As long as you look to others or even a God to fix your issues you will never work on your issues as you see your faults as not being your fault.

That's not really a fair description of Christian belief. (Not sure about other Abrahamic beliefs on this). As I see it, long ago someone came up with the "Problem of Evil". It stated that if God is all powerful, all knowing and all benevolent, then the evil we experience it would not exist. Therefore one of these three "omnis" must be wrong. It's a very powerful argument if you accept its premises. Christians were faced with coming up with an explanation that denied the conclusion, but still retained the "omnis". "Free will" was one of these. It says that God has given us free will from which all the evil flows, with a side conclusion that free will must be more important to God than the relief of suffering. To sum up, Christians don't complain about suffering, they accept it as God's will*. Other ideas include God's purposes being higher than ours and all this must be necessary in some way. And so on.

I do like the Buddhist view of things, btw.

* This is a very general description, there are endless variations and I don't want to trigger another "problem of evil" discussion.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I never complained about the suffering that is caused by human free will decisions, I only ever complained about the suffering that is beyond our control, and clearly much of suffering is beyond our control, so it is not anyone's fault.

"Natural evil" (floods, disease) can be blamed on God I suppose, but how about "free will" evil where we suffer from the actions of others? Isn't that largely beyond our control?

I do not believe in karma from past lives since I do not believe in reincarnation. Nothing could be more unjust.
We are only responsible for the one life we live and what we do with it.

Interesting. I've always seen it the other way round, where only having one chance to "get it right" is unfair and having many chances to try again, with a feature that we can learn from previous mistakes, is much better. Remember karma is not being punished for previous mistakes. It's "cause and effect" and applies to virtue as well as bad things. A saint comes into the world with all the accumulated merit from previous lives. (It's a lot more complicated than that but I think I'm not too far off).
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know a few who actually live the Christian faith they profess, but based on my own personal experiences as an ex-Christian of thirty years and what I experienced before that while growing up, I consider these caring Christians to be the exception and not the rule.

Moreover, their religion didn't make them good people. How could it? It just says be good and love one another, but it's version of love includes blood sacrifice, damnation, and various bigotries. We are told that these are all manifestations of God's love for man.

If we listen to satan's whisperings regards "the problem of evil", suffering and so on, we get hurt .. which is satan's intention, of course. his wish is to destroy our iman / faith.

It's the wish of your religious leaders that you not allow yourself to think like that. You are taught that your own reasoning and moral faculties cannot be trusted, and that its message of cognitive dissonance is a lie intended to steal your soul. You are taught to stop reasoning and to stop making independent moral judgments, which are the two pillars of strictly human thought. You are told that faith is a virtue and human understanding foolishness, and to accept that whatever thought or action is attributed to a god is good. If you agree to that, you are locked in.

When I was a new Christian, I agreed to suspend disbelief. I was already somewhat trained in critical thought (I had been to university for a while before dropping out and enlisting in the military), and was able to see the incongruency in the doctrine, but this did not cause cognitive dissonance, as I has agreed to suspend disbelief in order to test out this worldview and see if it became more coherent with time, the way a person might wear a new pair of shoes that don't fit quite right to see if they begin to feel more comfortable after being walked in a while. That never happened, and evidence surfaced that this religion was false, so I left it with great difficulty. I found myself praying to a god for a full year whose existence I no longer believed in for a sign whether I was making an error.

But I never lost the ability to evaluate evidence and make decisions based in it. If I had, I'd still be in that cocoon. If you know what an eggtooth is, this was my eggtooth, without which, I could not have tunneled out: "An egg tooth is a temporary, sharp projection present on the bill or snout of an oviparous animal at hatching. It allows the hatchling to penetrate the eggshell from inside and break free. Birds, reptiles, and monotremes possess egg teeth as hatchlings."

I don't believe that heaven is what some Christians believe it is, floating around on clouds worshiping God for all of eternity. I cannot imagine anything more boring than that.

I know, right? This is why I chuckle when people say that without a god belief, life has no purpose. Can one even imagine a less meaningful existence? And why would one define their purpose according to what another sees as their use? OK, this god might be a black hole of need requiring constant praise like a certain recent American president, but one wouldn't define his purpose in terms of satisfying that need. Christian revisionists tell us these days that hell is separation from God, that's how I live now, and it's preferable to being part of that cheering section.

It is awkward at best for a Baha'i to socialize with Christians

And vice versa. They will see you as spiritually deceived and lost, needing redemption. A few of the more prolific Baha'i on RF are telling us how these religions are one happy family, with Baha'i being the more evolved form, with the Christians disagreeing. You might have already seen this comment at Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true? (first two quotes and responses)

They cannot convert me to believe in Jesus since I already believe in Jesus, although not the same way they do.

And that's damnable to them. They will perceive you as deceived by Satan and be praying for your redemption. And yes, what you wrote is why they will not see you as one of them the way the Baha'i in the link above see them as a less evolved but compatible form of Baha'ism.

if God is all-knowing God knows everything, period.

There is some mathematics that speaks to this - Russell's Paradox and Godel's Theorems. I realize that for many, in theology, there aren't any rules and anything goes - that one just proclaims God exempt with the wave of a hand and a possible mention of transcending reason - but such ideas are incoherent (internally contradictory). Nothing transcends reason. Violating it is what leads to incoherence. Identifying the incoherence is identifying that there must be a violation of reason.

God is not subject to any rules

There's an incoherent comment now. Isn't that a rule? Furthermore, if God is subject to no rules, then nothing is preventing him for dissipating into chaos, and he has no constant qualities. Do you ever make the fine-tuning argument for God? Those who do are subjecting their god to rules that it must discover and conform to in order to create a universe hospitable to life and mind. Do you ever say that God cannot sin or lie, or abide being with sin? Christians often do. If you agree, then there are more rules for this god.

God does not have behavior

So is that unless one wants to agree that God is nonexistent. Santa doesn't have any behavior, either (the character in stories does, but that is not Santa himself).

God does not 'do' anything. God wills things to happen and they happen as He wills.

And that is an incoherent comment. Willing things to happen is doing things. I will things to happen and they often happen. I can animate this body just with will alone and modify reality, as when it types out an RF post at my beck and call.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Moreover, their religion didn't make them good people. How could it? It just says be good and love one another, but it's version of love includes blood sacrifice, damnation, and various bigotries. We are told that these are all manifestations of God's love for man.

Speaking as a former Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I see the biblical God as a sadistic and psychopathic monster who delights in inflicting pain and torturing people, as well as in causing total chaos and disasters in order to inflict pain and kill people.

This is why, as I explained in my previous post here, I do not believe anyone should derive their understanding of morality (or love, mercy, and justice) from the Bible. In my opinion, the biblical God is like a narcissistic and abusive parent who only "loves" you when you do or say exactly what they want you to do, and you think that as long as you don't make them angry, they won't hurt you, but you aren't completely certain because they have an extremely violent temper. If you disobey them and make them angry at you, then there will be hell to pay. That is not a relationship based on unconditional love. If the biblical God exists, then I most certainly don't think that he is worthy of my respect and reverence, let alone my love and worship. However, I do believe he deserves my contempt.

As I previously stated, I know few Christians who actually live what they profess, and I regard them as the exception rather than the rule. When I was an evangelical Christian, I trained in an evangelism ministry and became the leader of a small evangelism team. We would travel to different cities to street preach as well as meet other evangelical Christians and hopefully train them in the evangelical ministry. I was dismayed by the fact that very few pastors and other evangelicals we met in these cities were interested in evangelism.

But after I spent time hanging around some of these Christians, I could see why evangelism wasn't a top priority and why neither was behaving like Christians outside of a church setting. It was then that I began to realize that being a genuine Christian wasn't a priority for them either. I continued to see this pattern throughout the years while I was still a Christian. I saw time and time again that being a Christian was nothing more than a label to wear for most of the Christians that I met in different churches and at Christian events around the country. Most of the Christians I've met talk the talk, but hardly any of them actually walk the walk. Finally, I will say that I've seen the same pattern on this forum as well, but I'm not in the least bit surprised by the behavior. In fact, I've come to expect it.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” - Brennan Manning
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Once again I'm going to ask you to explain.

What Baha'u'llah seems to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong , I don't have the full context) is that if God commanded us to starve ourselves to death (limitless fast?) we should obey it. Otherwise we should work things out for ourselves (not sure how that would apply if we were all starved to death). Or is it up to us to decided how long to fast? How does that apply to being commanded to perform an act that that has been expressly forbidden to us in other places?

The context is in a Prayer given for the Baha'i Fast (which starts on March 2nd for 19 days).

Here is an extract, it is mentioned near the end of this verse.

"Exalted art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by those whom Thou hast bidden to observe the Fast for the sake of Thy love and good-pleasure, who have demonstrated their allegiance to Thy law and followed Thy verses and precepts, and who have broken their fast while enjoying near access to Thee and beholding Thy countenance. By Thy glory! Since they are turning to the court of Thy good-pleasure, all their days are days of fasting. Were the mouth of Thy will to address them saying: "Observe, for My beauty's sake, the fast, O people, and set no limit to its duration," I swear by the majesty of Thy glory, that every one of them will faithfully observe it, will abstain from whatsoever will violate Thy law, and will continue to do so until they yield up their souls unto Thee, for they have tasted the sweetness of Thy call, and become inebriated with Thy remembrance and praise and with the words proceeding from the lips of Thy command....."

The context enables us to appreciate that God does as God chooses, and the best choice we have, is to submit. There are quotes from older scriptures about the level of submission required to embrace and be strong in Faith, that God guides us in every age and Islam is all about submission. All this guidance is for our own benefit, so if God says an unlimited fast is to our greatest benefit, a believer will embrace that fast. So a couple of quotes from the Quran we can also consider.

Thus verse says ro me that God's plan for humanity will always dominate over our choices, that is because God knows of our choices before we do, an the plan encompasses those choices.

Quran 28:68 "Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!"

I see this verse indicates that it is God that sets the path and laws that humanity need to follow.

Quran42:13 "He has laid down for you the (same) way of life and belief which He had commended to Noah, and which We have enjoined on you, and which We had bequeathed to Abraham, Moses and Jesus, so that they should maintain the order and not be divided among themselves. Heavy is to idolaters what you invite them to. God chooses whom He please for Himself, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him."

So in context to @Trailblazer, it would be up to my dear friend what she chooses to do if God commanded anything to do with her cats ;)

Knowing Trailblazer, I am willing to bet God would not offer her that choice :D:)

Regards Tony
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I do not believe in karma from past lives since I do not believe in reincarnation. Nothing could be more unjust.

We are only responsible for the one life we live and what we do with it.

As a psychic medium, I'm not sure about reincarnation myself. However, I tend to think it's possible since I know that human spirits can choose between crossing over into the spirit world and remaining earthbound. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to believe that a human spirit can also choose to be reborn into a new physical life. To be honest, the possibility of reincarnation intrigues me.

I have researched reincarnation and discovered several convincing stories about young children remembering specific details about people they've never met or a dead language they could speak, and their parents having no idea where their child learned it. I've also read several professional studies that were conducted on several young children who recalled a past life, such as "Life Before Life: Children's Memories of Previous Lives" by Dr. Jim B. Tucker, which I think is a fascinating read, as is his other book, "Return to Life: Extraordinary Cases of Children Who Remember Past Lives." I've also watched documentaries about reincarnation, such as the Netflix docuseries "Surviving Death," of which I think the last episode makes a convincing case for reincarnation. I will say that, while I liked the documentary series overall, I wasn't convinced that all the mediums presented were authentic because I had a very negative vibe about them. I thought that the series' exploration of psychic mediumship would have been more convincing if Tyler Henry had been featured instead. Tyler is well-known for his show, "Hollywood Medium," and the more recent, "Life After Death with Tyler Henry."

Of course, I cannot say with absolute certainty that reincarnation occurs because I have no recollection of a past life, but I have read several stories and books and watched documentaries that, in my opinion, provide convincing evidence that reincarnation is possible.

9 Amazing Reincarnation Stories From Children

Tales Told by Children Remembering Their Past Lives

Reincarnation Stories: Children Who Remember Their Past Lives

5 Mysterious Cases of Children Who Claimed to Remember Their Past Lives

Little boy’s eerie reincarnation story freaks out mom in viral TikTok: ‘This is scary’

Four-year-old girl remembers everything about her past life, tells a story that makes the whole family shiver
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You are told that faith is a virtue and human understanding foolishness, and to accept that whatever thought or action is attributed to a god is good..
Really? Do you always believe what you are told?
I don't .. not unless it makes sense.

I found myself praying to a god for a full year whose existence I no longer believed in for a sign whether I was making an error..
life can be very confusing..

But I never lost the ability to evaluate evidence and make decisions based in it. If I had, I'd still be in that cocoon..
Well, you may feel like you were in a "cocoon of falsehood", but I don't.
Islam is a way of life. The problem for me is in following it, as I have bad health.
Can you tell me what is detrimental about observing the 5 pillars of Islam?
..because in my experience, there is none.
On the contrary .. losing one's faith and discarding them is great loss.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you always believe what you are told?

I'm a skeptic and a critical thinker. But many of the faithful believe whatever they are told, including that faith is a virtue and the wisdom of man foolishness. Regarding whatever a god says or does being considered good just because a god is said to be behind it is also typical of Abrahamics. I just left a post minutes ago on another thread addressing that.

losing one's faith and discarding them is great loss.

Only if you've become dependent on it. I did it decades ago, and as you know, consider it a great achievement. It turns out that I am quite comfortable knowing that my consciousness may be extinguished at death and that there is nobody watching over me from the sky or hearing my prayers. I have a very helpful worldview that resulted from leaving the religious one, with what I consider a better map of reality and of the moral landscape. Why would I want to go back to that state of dependence? I explained the process of withdrawing from Christianity, or burrowing out as I described it. It was like withdrawing from cigarettes, which I've also done and also rank among my better choices and greater successes in life. Sure, a cigarette is very satisfying to a smoker, or so he will say, but what he really means is that it staves off the dysphoria of withdrawal that comes from being in a state of dependence and not getting what you need. How is that ever better? I am grateful for all of the dollars and hours NOT consumed by religion in those decades since I left it over forty years ago.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Knowing Trailblazer, I am willing to bet God would not offer her that choice :D:)
Knowing God, I am willing to bet God would not offer anyone that choice.

I hope there is not a misconception among readers here....

It is important to note that even if there was no limit on the duration if the 19-day fast, nobody would die, since the Baha'i fast is only from sunup to sundown. It is no big deal. I often go for 12 hours without eating when I am too busy to eat.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What Baha'u'llah seems to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong , I don't have the full context) is that if God commanded us to starve ourselves to death (limitless fast?) we should obey it.
FYI, the Baha'i 19-day fast is only a fast from sunup till sundown. Even if we did that fast for the rest of our lives we would not die.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"Natural evil" (floods, disease) can be blamed on God I suppose, but how about "free will" evil where we suffer from the actions of others? Isn't that largely beyond our control?
If we suffer from the actions of others that is beyond our control, so it is our fate. Since God determines our fate, you can do the math. ;)
Interesting. I've always seen it the other way round, where only having one chance to "get it right" is unfair and having many chances to try again, with a feature that we can learn from previous mistakes, is much better. Remember karma is not being punished for previous mistakes. It's "cause and effect" and applies to virtue as well as bad things. A saint comes into the world with all the accumulated merit from previous lives. (It's a lot more complicated than that but I think I'm not too far off).
In this life we are given many chances to get it wrong, learn from our mistakes, and then try again and get it right.
If our life is cut short by fate and we do not have as many chances as we needed, God will get recompense us in the afterlife. In addition to that, we can continue to progress forever in the afterlife.
 
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