Convince me to vote (seriously!)

[Quintessence]

In general I'm very much a "you do you" sort of person. Be who you are, act in accord with your values. One cannot do anything else, after all - we are who we are.

I more or less refuse to believe that misogyny is so prevalent in this country that tens of millions are not only okay voting for a convicted rapist but they are okay voting for a convicted rapist that was instrumental in stripping women of their basic human rights. This never should have happened and anyone enabling it should... mmph... well, you are not my friend. I'm not sure I would even want to be in the same room as you. Because you apparently hate me and want me to suffer and die. I am a generous sort who grants respect to everyone by default and trusts everyone by default and is forgiving to a fault. But this is something where I draw a very, very firm line. Anyone who enables abuse of my person and the destruction of my life can kindly $#@% off.

I remember when I first learned about how women were treated as property and had no rights in the past I wasn't sure I believed it was real. Yet here we are - women as property of the state once again. Second class citizens. We have fewer human rights than when we were born. No, honey, that's not something you "leave up to the states." Others can kindly $#@% off with that nonsense too.

Here's the thing to remember - if the only thing you care about is the economy, women are half of the economy. Their suffering can and will have an impact on the economy as a whole. There was, quite obviously, a surge of women sterilizing themselves because they'd rather not risk death or disability because of barbaric forced birth laws. That means less American born children. Who is gonna fill those jobs? Immigrants? Well, the same party who brought to you women-as-second-class-citizens doesn't want them around either. So if they get their way on immigration, where are the workers going to come from? Naturally, they're going to go after contraception next. Make America "great" again by raping women, forcing them to be nothing more than baby making machines, and maybe just strip them of their right to vote and open bank accounts too. Why not? Seems to be what they're going for these days.

That's what I see when I look at the former Republican Party. I say former, because I remember when they weren't this blatantly misogynistic. Or this blatantly racist. They're not conservative anymore, they're... well... fascists. And just... what the?! I don't get it. I don't get how anyone can be okay with it much less support it. What happened to the actual conservative party I used to vote for sometimes?

 

[Pogo]

My biggest issues are:

1. Immigration. I am for legal immigration but not the kind we have now. We need people vetted before they are allowed in to the country. The amount we have let in is unsustainable and is causing a lot of horrible crime in southern countries and around the border.

Besides this is a fantasy that crime is a function of immigrants, you are right that immigrants need to be vetted, the current problem currently is that legally we have to offer all persons who show up on our side of the border due process. When there are more people that we can handle, we have to release them into society to respond later to their court cases or build jails to contain them. Jails have not been the alternative because they are far more expensive and the parolees have not been a major problem justifying a rethink.

2. Inflation/Economy: Grocery prices are so much higher than they were 4 years ago. The inflation rate is still high at 2.4%. Most economists that I have read think inflation at less than 2% is optimal. I have lost ground over the last 4 years as far as pay. My increases have not kept up with inflation.

Yes prices are higher than 4 years ago, we had a pandemic inbetween which had economic effects on prices that no president or government could have controlled and maintained a simultaneous non communist price controlled economy.

3. Foreign policy. The US policy has lead to increased aggression in the world and wars in my opinion that threatens the US interests.

Here you might have an arguable point, was Bush correct in deposing Sadam Hussein or any number of other questions, but we may have to learn to disagree on this point it being so amorphous.

4. Government spending is too high and the deficit it too high at over $2,000,000,000,000.

The biggest item is the military, are you ready to slash that, the other biggest item is the national debt which Trump increased by I think 4 Trillion and proposes to increase by that much again due to his policy of not spending now, but putting it effectively on a credit card to be paid later.

5. Civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, parental rights and such have been threatened..

You will actually have to demonstate something here since all of the complaints about the government providing information to private companies have been adjudicated as not in any way violations of the first amendment, Just because others disagree with you and say so is not violating your rights.

In my mind the abortion issue is settled as it is left to each state to decide what they want to do, so it is not an important issue to me.

Well congratulations to you then, but why leave it up to the states rather than the people who it actually effects?
Why should a state government have any more control over the decision than a federal government?
Waiting for your erudite response .;\

 

[an anarchist]

a convicted rapist

I’m gonna research this myself, but I feel terrible that this has gone over my head.

…

Okay I’m getting mixed results in my research. Is he a convicted rapist like for real real?

Jury finds Trump liable for sexual abuse, awards accuser $5M

A jury has found Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing advice columnist E. Jean Carroll in 1996. Jurors awarded her $5 million in a judgment that could haunt the former president as he campaigns to regain the White House. The verdict was announced in a federal courtroom in New York City on...

apnews.com

NEW YORK (AP) — A jury found Donald Trump liable Tuesday for sexually abusing advice columnist E. Jean Carroll in 1996, awarding her $5 million in a judgment that could haunt the former president as he campaigns to regain the White House.

The verdict was split: Jurors rejected Carroll’s claim that she was raped, finding Trump responsible for a lesser degree of sexual abuse.

What is the difference here between “sexual abuse” and “rape”? Is it even an important distinction? Both seem reprehensible.

 

[Pogo]

There is a group of people in the USA that have been foaming at the mouth over the "liberal" changes that have occurred since FDR. So far they have been unable to do much about it. The Republicans have used them to get votes, but have until recently been sensible enough not to actually give them want they want. Now they have Trump (or more accurately Trump has them) who is telling them that he will give them everything they have wanted. No more abortion, no same sex marriage, minorities and women back in their place, and so on.

If you want to return to that kind of country, vote for Trump. If not, vote for Harris and all down ticket Democrats regardless of whether you like all her policies or not. I see it as like a war. Defeat the enemy first, then we can go back to arguing about these other things. (Though I'm afraid the job will be far from done if she wins, MAGA will still be there to be dealt with).

Damned aliens and their external dispassionate views.

 

[Pogo]

Look at Tulsi Gabbard and Kennedy Jr.

Both have essentially stated the same thing of the modern Democrats today that in no way resemble the Democrat party they once knew.

Oh wow, you found two, one of whom has a brain worm, now that done, can you actually articulate a rational position?

 

[Pogo]

Really? It is Kamala that has changer her positions on over 14 issues to try to get elected, not Trump.

Abortion is where it should be, at the state level.

That is not what he wants to do. Your race baiting lies are disgusting. He wants to deport people here illegally no matter where they are from. He wants to deport criminals that are immigrants no matter where they are from.

Ok, but every woman in the US can still get an abortion. What else will he do to women again?

Whoosh.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Abortion is where it should be, at the state level.

The Republicans are not content with that.

From "Anti-Abortion Activists Want to Have It Both Ways - You can’t “return abortion to the states” and then get upset when states protect abortion rights." Anti-Abortion Activists Want to Have It Both Ways:

"Since Roe was overturned, abortion rates have gone up in most states with abortion bans, The New York Times reported Wednesday. Perhaps this might alarm anti-abortion activists like Kristan Hawkins, president of the anti-choice group Students for Life America, prominent among those who helped end Roe, and who the Times interviewed for its story. For Hawkins, the fault lies with states doing exactly what the Dobbs decision allowed them to do: make their own abortion laws. “A serious breakdown in the law takes place when one state attempts to interfere with another state’s efforts to protect their citizens,” Hawkins told the Times."

You should never believe those people. Just look at how Trump's three SCOTUS nominees lied through their teeth to get confirmed and immediately violated their promises. They're no better than Trump, who also lies without compunction.

I more or less refuse to believe that misogyny is so prevalent in this country that tens of millions are not only okay voting for a convicted rapist but they are okay voting for a convicted rapist that was instrumental in stripping women of their basic human rights.

Then you don't understand MAGA. They're not like you and me.

Trump's appeal to them is not limited to his misogyny. They seem to like his other bigotries as well, and either don't mind or welcome his threats of becoming a dictator. These are angry, hateful, bitter people who welcome a scorched earth. They don't share American values with the left.

 

[Pogo]

What rational approach? She hasn't explained a single thing in detail what she is going to do.

But we do know she was raised in a middle class family.

Who can ever compete with that brilliant plan?

She has proposed a plan to make raising children more affordable and another to help them buy a first house.
Trump's answer is that of Ronald Reagans failed policy of trickle down economics that if the rich got richer you would get the leavings.
How did that work out for you? were there enough leavings for your maybe children to afford a house as our parent's did in the 50's 60's?
Think about it, you don't like where you are now, but why is that really?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Oh wow, you found two, one of whom has a brain worm, now that done, can you actually articulate a rational position?

Elliot Pritt

Jeremy LaCombe

Tricia Cotham

Kyrsten Sinema

I found four more for ya.

I aim to please.

 

[Pogo]

I’m gonna research this myself, but I feel terrible that this has gone over my head.

…

Okay I’m getting mixed results in my research. Is he a convicted rapist like for real real?

Jury finds Trump liable for sexual abuse, awards accuser $5M

A jury has found Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing advice columnist E. Jean Carroll in 1996. Jurors awarded her $5 million in a judgment that could haunt the former president as he campaigns to regain the White House. The verdict was announced in a federal courtroom in New York City on...

apnews.com

NEW YORK (AP) — A jury found Donald Trump liable Tuesday for sexually abusing advice columnist E. Jean Carroll in 1996, awarding her $5 million in a judgment that could haunt the former president as he campaigns to regain the White House.

The verdict was split: Jurors rejected Carroll’s claim that she was raped, finding Trump responsible for a lesser degree of sexual abuse.

What is the difference here between “sexual abuse” and “rape”? Is it even an important distinction? Both seem reprehensible.

New York state Legalese, He is an adjudicated sexual abuser for an offence that in most any other jurisdiction would be defined as rape.
You are welcome to split hairs if you wish.
From a colloquial point of view as the majority of the public would recognize his actions, it would be classified as at least some version of rape, but you are within your rights to your own definition.

Anarchy has it's advantages in that there are no standards.

 

[Pogo]

Elliot Pritt

Jeremy LaCombe

Tricia Cotham

Kyrsten Sinema

I found four more for ya.

I aim to please.

I didn't ask you for a list, I asked you for a rational position.

 

[an anarchist]

Anarchy has its advantages in that there are no standards.

Ouch! That was out of nowhere, thanks.

You are fundamentally wrong, as most people on this topic. Anarchy means no rulers, not no rules, as I say again for the nth time. But that is well besides the point of the OP, so let’s drop the topic of anarchy.

 

[Quintessence]

What is the difference here between “sexual abuse” and “rape”? Is it even an important distinction? Both seem reprehensible.

I'm sure there's some fancy legal distinction, but in practical terms, terms like "sexual abuse" and "sexual assault" are sanitized way of saying rape. If the politics of this country were even remotely normal right now, this by itself would have tanked the man's political career. As it well should - in virtually any place of work in America, sexual assault gets you fired and blacklisted. Not only has the former Republican Party looked the other way on this, but they've looked the other way on a litany of other things that in normal political conditions would have made him an utter pariah. The man is, quite frankly, evil and that's not a word I use lightly. I kind of dislike using it - evil people find being called evil empowering. It's a form of validation in the mind of a sociopath.

Then you don't understand MAGA. They're not like you and me.

Trump's appeal to them is not limited to his misogyny. They seem to like his other bigotries as well, and either don't mind or welcome his threats of becoming a dictator. These are angry, hateful, bitter people who welcome a scorched earth. They don't share American values with the left.

Not entirely true, at least not based on the bits of research I've read. That's definitely part of it though, unfortunately. A sad lesson of history is that authoritarianism is welcomed in with cheers and applause. Then comes the costs and by then the damage has been done.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I didn't ask you for a list, I asked you for a rational position.

My rational position would be looking back at how the parties used to be, and returning to what had made those parties great during its early inception.

 

[an anarchist]

I'm sure there's some fancy legal distinction, but in practical terms, terms like "sexual abuse" and "sexual assault" are sanitized way of saying rape. If the politics of this country were even remotely normal right now, this by itself would have tanked the man's political career. As it well should

I think I’ll probably vote Harris just on this alone. I am actually baffled that this hasn’t tanked the man’s chances at president. Well, perhaps I shouldn’t be…

might do a fun/depressing experiment and get my family’s thoughts on this. They are all pro trump, so next time they bring it up I think I’ll say “oh I’m voting Harris because Trump is a rapist.” and see what they say. I am curious if they 1. Do not believe in the charges like it was “a witch hunt”. 2. Do not care about it. It’s more than morbid curiosity for me, they are my family so I am trying to understand. Like the female members of my family I am wondering how they can overlook that. And if they simply want to overlook it, then I’ll finally cave and talk politics with them and tell them they are wrong for overlooking that.

 

[Pogo]

In general I'm very much a "you do you" sort of person. Be who you are, act in accord with your values. One cannot do anything else, after all - we are who we are.

I more or less refuse to believe that misogyny is so prevalent in this country that tens of millions are not only okay voting for a convicted rapist but they are okay voting for a convicted rapist that was instrumental in stripping women of their basic human rights. This never should have happened and anyone enabling it should... mmph... well, you are not my friend. I'm not sure I would even want to be in the same room as you. Because you apparently hate me and want me to suffer and die. I am a generous sort who grants respect to everyone by default and trusts everyone by default and is forgiving to a fault. But this is something where I draw a very, very firm line. Anyone who enables abuse of my person and the destruction of my life can kindly $#@% off.

I remember when I first learned about how women were treated as property and had no rights in the past I wasn't sure I believed it was real. Yet here we are - women as property of the state once again. Second class citizens. We have fewer human rights than when we were born. No, honey, that's not something you "leave up to the states." Others can kindly $#@% off with that nonsense too.

Here's the thing to remember - if the only thing you care about is the economy, women are half of the economy. Their suffering can and will have an impact on the economy as a whole. There was, quite obviously, a surge of women sterilizing themselves because they'd rather not risk death or disability because of barbaric forced birth laws. That means less American born children. Who is gonna fill those jobs? Immigrants? Well, the same party who brought to you women-as-second-class-citizens doesn't want them around either. So if they get their way on immigration, where are the workers going to come from? Naturally, they're going to go after contraception next. Make America "great" again by raping women, forcing them to be nothing more than baby making machines, and maybe just strip them of their right to vote and open bank accounts too. Why not? Seems to be what they're going for these days.

That's what I see when I look at the former Republican Party. I say former, because I remember when they weren't this blatantly misogynistic. Or this blatantly racist. They're not conservative anymore, they're... well... fascists. And just... what the?! I don't get it. I don't get how anyone can be okay with it much less support it. What happened to the actual conservative party I used to vote for sometimes?

Well maybe we just need to look at this current situation as one of many in human history.
Some have been responsible for increases in social beings and some have not.
We will probably continue to increase and put our pressure on the world environment but whether a particular subset becomes the representive of the species in general is a different question.

 

[We Never Know]

a convicted rapist

Trump wasn't convicted of rape. Trump was found liable for sexual assault.

A person is not convicted in a civil court. They are found liable.
Convictions are rendered in criminal courts.

Either is bad however.

 

[Quintessence]

I think I’ll probably vote Harris just on this alone. I am actually baffled that this hasn’t tanked the man’s chances at president. Well, perhaps I shouldn’t be…

might do a fun/depressing experiment and get my family’s thoughts on this. They are all pro trump, so next time they bring it up I think I’ll say “oh I’m voting Harris because Trump is a rapist.” and see what they say. I am curious if they 1. Do not believe in the charges like it was “a witch hunt”. 2. Do not care about it. It’s more than morbid curiosity for me, they are my family so I am trying to understand. Like the female members of my family I am wondering how they can overlook that. And if they simply want to overlook it, then I’ll finally cave and talk politics with them and tell them they are wrong for overlooking that.

I've always found the phrase "witch hunt" used by that individual to be a special level of ironic or insidious.

As a Pagan, Druid, and Witch I've done a bit of reading a bout actual witch hunts (personal saftey reasons). Actual witch hunts target individuals who are not in positions of power and are inconveniencing the presumed social order or norms of society. Historically, that's typically meant independent-minded women but sometimes some men if they were convenient targets.

Most witches are women, because witch hunts were all about persecuting the powerless

Powerful men often proclaim baseless accusations to be a ‘witch hunt.’ But American witch trials have always targeted a persecuted minority: women.

theconversation.com

Almost by definition, one cannot have a "witch hunt" against anyone in a position of power and authority. Those people are the witch hunters. I understand there are colloquial definitions of the phrase, but at least with respect to actual historical witch hunts, the term is getting misused. I suppose I find it particularly galling in light of that person's misogyny.

As for women who can somehow support a blatantly misogynistic candidate, there are a lot of women with high levels of internalized misogyny. Honestly, I'm not sure any human regardless of sex or gender doesn't have some occasional self-hatred or disparagement. The humans who don't would probably be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. Which, funny thing, the Republican presidential candidate almost certainly has.

 

[Quintessence]

Trump wasn't convicted of rape. Trump was found liable for sexual assault.

A person is not convicted in a civil court. They are found liable.
Convictions are rendered in criminal courts.

Yeah, you're not wrong - I took a bit of license there. I'm not usually one for dramatic effect, but this in particular just... ugh.

 

[Pogo]

My rational position would be looking back at how the parties used to be, and returning to what had made those parties great during its early inception.

Oh, and just how did they used to be? And while you are at it, provide dates for these used to be's.
This is one of your more laughable contentions. That there is some sort of consistency in either your understanding of politics and support for any given organization or even more peripherally how any of their policies would affect you personally,

You have gone from believing that the government was there to help people like you to believing that they are out to get you.
What is it that you think you should be able to do that is now frowned upon?
rape, DWI, spousal abuse, check kiting, or any number of things that were accepted in the "great" past.
As far as we can tell many things are wrong but you are the only one who knows what it was when it was right, so tell us.