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Cop murders 12 year old boy

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I want to know how and where the kid got the toy gun from. And how much the parents knew of the kids activity with the gun. Did they also know that orange label was removed?

There were so many things that lead up to this tragedy that if properly acted and supervised on this incident would not have occurred. If you force a person to make a split second decision concerning their own life its not going to end up well for others involved.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Very much so. If someone wants to put out gun toys then make them obviously toys. The very plastic looking "old west" cap guns, or the brightly colored Nerf type things. Since when has having a toy gun so realistic as to be mistaken for the real thing ever been a good idea?
The orange tip was removed from the airsoft gun, which is NOT a toy.
It looks like a black ops CO2 airsoft replica of the Colt 1911.
I have one, and it is most definitely not a toy, nor is it legal for a 12 year old to purchase,
 

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
I just watched the video. The police car drove right up beside the boy. Then the officer in the passenger side jumped out of the car and immediately shot the boy from close range. There is no way the kid had a chance to react before he was killed at point blank range. The police were in no danger before they drove up to the boy to shoot him. They could have shouted instructions from a safe distance, hiding behind their car, and waited to see if he would comply. Very bad shooting
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.

It was not murder.

The boy is to blame, along with his parent(s). He was waving a gun around that looked real. The orange cap had been removed. When the officers arrived and told him to put his hands up, he reached for the gun instead. The officer opened fire and neutralized what he perceived as a threat in that split second.

Officers have to make split second decisions. If a suspect has a gun, an officer can potentially be killed just like anyone else, regardless of who the suspect is or how old they are. Officers have the right to neutralize a threat. They are taught to "make it home at the end of the shift." All it takes is a lucky bullet hitting an officer in the head to kill him/her.

It was a sad and tragic event that could have been avoided had the boy listened, had the orange cap on the toy gun, and had his parent(s) raised him better with respect to playing with "guns." The officer has to live with the consequences of his actions, knowing he killed a 12 year old child in the line of duty.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
They could have shouted instructions from a safe distance, hiding behind their car, and waited to see if he would comply.

Actually, good point. The video did have enough information to show that the cops initially made a very poor judgment call to drive up in the park, rather than from the street. This detail that did not fully register yesterday with me does cast a large responsibility on the part of the officers for this tragedy.

I have no law-enforcement experience. But I have played a game called SWAT 4 fairly extensively for a bit. That game is a rough simulation of being a SWAT officer called on to high-danger situations. It's very procedure-heavy, and killing a suspect without first yelling "STOP POLICE" will cause the player to lose points, as would other situations that would trigger that "Unauthorized use of deadly force" penalty.

Obviously this is no substitute for the real thing, as the stakes are not life-and-death, but get-the-highest-score. If you fail, just try the mission again. It's frustrating, because some of these missions are LONG (later ones up to 20 minutes or more), and you can be killed almost immediately even from full health. If you die, the entire mission fails. But it's still nowhere near the same. However, it has given me at least a small sense of how to handle a situation where someone has a gun, and the general rule of thumb is this: if you're going to an area where someone is very likely to be armed, keep your distance. You don't open a door randomly without first checking to see if anyone's behind it, and if your surprised, you're probably going to pull the trigger on whoever surprised you, even if they turn out to be a civy (which fails the mission, too, by the way). Keeping your distance and playing carefully can allow you just enough time to make a judgment call with complete information.

Tamir was just walking away with his hands in his pockets, casually. There's no indication that he was interacting with the cops from a distance. Again, the ghosting and lack of sound makes it virtually impossible to determine exactly what happened between the cop getting out of the car and shooting (even the moment of shooting would require multiple watches to fully determine, and I don't think my hyper-empathy could handle that), but unless several seconds of footage was removed (and I see no reason why it would have been as the video was released directly by the police and such editing would severely discredit them), clearly whatever happened was a split-second panic on both the cop and Tamir. That's not enough time for either side to make a complete-information judgment call, and it could have been avoided if the driver had stayed in the street.

It's still not enough to make me consider this an example of police brutality as opposed to a tragic accident. But it does place large immediate responsibility on the part of the driver, at least, for putting the car in a position that didn't allow either his partner or Tamir to react with anything but panic.
 

turk179

I smell something....
Yeah, the video is a bit rough around the edges. No audio to to hear the cops commands if there were any. If you truly believe that the cops were looking to bag themselves a 12 year old black boy then this video would support that. Then again so would a video of marry poppins if you are so set on cop brutality.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I just watched the video. The police car drove right up beside the boy. Then the officer in the passenger side jumped out of the car and immediately shot the boy from close range. There is no way the kid had a chance to react before he was killed at point blank range. The police were in no danger before they drove up to the boy to shoot him. They could have shouted instructions from a safe distance, hiding behind their car, and waited to see if he would comply. Very bad shooting

That's not the video that's posted further up in this thread. In that video you can't see anything on the passenger side of the car. If the kid was down on the passenger side of the car, why did the cop circle around and away from the front of the car to the left with his gun drawn? That says to me the kid was not down and was still alive and perceived to be a threat.
 

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
That's not the video that's posted further up in this thread. In that video you can't see anything on the passenger side of the car. If the kid was down on the passenger side of the car, why did the cop circle around and away from the front of the car to the left with his gun drawn? That says to me the kid was not down and was still alive and perceived to be a threat.

What I see is that the boy was standing there. Then the car pulls up very close. The officer exited the car as soon as it stopped(or before). By the time he was fully out of the car, the boy had already started to fall. That's what I see anyway. I don't think the officer's reactions after that point are relevant. I simply do not see any way that the boy had an opportunity to comply with any instructions, if he was in fact told to drop the weapon. He was on the ground within 3 seconds of the car stopping.
If you look carefully, at 7:11 on the video the car came to a stop. I see the boy fall at 7:13
 
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Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
at 7:12 in the video, you can see the boy start to fall and the officer is outside of the car aiming the gun. at 7:11 the officer is starting to exit the car. at 7:10, the car is just stopping. By 7:13 the boy is clearly falling and the officer is already several feet away. Am I seeing it wrong?
 

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
why did the cop circle around and away from the front of the car to the left with his gun drawn? That says to me the kid was not down and was still alive and perceived to be a threat.

The driver came around with his gun drawn because he could not fully know what the situation was from his side of the car.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I just watched the video. The police car drove right up beside the boy. Then the officer in the passenger side jumped out of the car and immediately shot the boy from close range. There is no way the kid had a chance to react before he was killed at point blank range. The police were in no danger before they drove up to the boy to shoot him. They could have shouted instructions from a safe distance, hiding behind their car, and waited to see if he would comply. Very bad shooting

I agree with you. I don't really comprehend why the cop drove the car like that close to the boy.
He put himself and his partner in a situation where even someone who has never shot a gun before could possibly kill them in one try.

Also, I believe, considering how close they were, the cop should have tried to shoot the boy's arm, rather than the chest. This should be easy to a trained person at that range ( it looks like less than 2 meters ).

This doesn't mean the result would necessarily have been any different though.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Police are trained to shot to kill, if someone had a gun or knife, and aiming or come forward to the cop, they must put that person down as soon as possible. Many times cops only have one chance to kill and not be killed, aiming at someone's leg is a harder target than the chest area, especially when your life is at risk, with adrenal pumping and fear, cops are human, which most people forget.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
The driver came around with his gun drawn because he could not fully know what the situation was from his side of the car.

Then the kid was not down yet, and he was assessing the situation, to the contradiction of what people are claiming. He could not hear a gunshot or see if his partner went down? And if he saw one or the other was down, why didn't he pass behind the car to go to where either the kid or the cop had fallen. C'mon!
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I hope everyone will learn a lesson from this, that is never point a gun, fake or real at a cop, simple.

Thank you. There's the lesson is for everyone sitting on their ivory thrones in their ivory towers. If you see a cop pull up to you, even for a routine traffic stop, you put your hands on the wheel and freeze. You don't reach for anything until the cop tells you to move very slowly, whether he has his gun drawn or not. People are taking this business too far of not respecting the fact that it's a cop's job to protect him/herself and others from harm. If the kid was waving the gun around at other people, what makes anyone think he's not going to point it or reach for it with the cops? People (including me, biased towards cops) are judging from a poor quality video against the cops. I say again: when you're in the cop's shoes, you can pass judgement.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I still maintain that people who are trashing the cop(s) would be crapping in their pants if the gun, toy or otherwise, was being pointed at them, and would hope and be glad that the cop(s) take down the person with the gun. Btw, if it was a real gun, the cops are still taking a chance in shooting, because the instinct of the person holding the gun is to clench their hand... bang! protein everywhere! So, they simply can't win. Again, put on a badge and come talk to me. :rolleyes:
 

Paradox22

I'm only Hume ian
Then the kid was not down yet, and he was assessing the situation, to the contradiction of what people are claiming. He could not hear a gunshot or see if his partner went down? And if he saw one or the other was down, why didn't he pass behind the car to go to where either the kid or the cop had fallen. C'mon!
(1) I am not going to second-guess why he went around the front of the car rather than the back. My guess is because his partner was already about 15 feet in back. If the driver went around the car that way he would not have as good a view as if he came around the front.
(2) The kid was already going down. At 7:11 of the video the car stopped. At 7:12 you can see the passenger side officer with his arm(s) extended and the kid starts to fall. (At this point they are about 10 ft away). At 7:13 the Officer is farther away, still pointing the gun, and the boy is clearly falling. It happened so fast that the driver could not get there until the victim was already down.

People are taking this business too far of not respecting the fact that it's a cop's job to protect him/herself and others from harm. If the kid was waving the gun around at other people, what makes anyone think he's not going to point it or reach for it with the cops?

(3) The kid was not waving a gun around at that time. He had been sitting at the picnic table for a while with his head down. Then he got up and slowly walked in the direction of the sidewalk. That is when the patrol car drove up between him and the sidewalk. 3 second later it was all over. The police were only in danger because they drove up to within 10 feet of the boy. They could have just stopped a safe distance away, got behind their car, and shouted instructions to put down the gun without putting anyone in danger. The driver's decision to stop that close to the boy meant that the other cop had to either stay in the car, right next to an armed boy, or exit the car right next to the armed boy. Once he is out of the car, they are only about ten feet from each other and the officer is in a very dangerous position. At that point its easy to see how he could be thinking he has to shoot or be shot. But it never had to come to that
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, this will all be for the next grand jury to decide. All this armchair lawyering, judging, second-guessing, and determining what cops should do and shouldn't do has become a waste of bandwidth. We're not LEOs, we're not lawyers, we're average people letting our emotions, biases and prejudices rule the day. So with that said, I'm going to make a concerted effort to bow out of all these conversations raging over Tamir Rice and Michael Brown.
 
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