Cop murders 12 year old boy

[Jainarayan]

The way he speaks about cops I'd assume that he has no issue with dead cops.

You know, this is a big problem I have with the population at-large. Granted, I may be making sweeping statements here, but it seems to me that there is such an animosity by civilians towards LEOs. 99.99% of LEOs are ordinary guys and gals doing a job. It's when the "cop-haters" butts are saved by the cops, people start singing a different tune. I just don't get this.

 

[averageJOE]

It's not hyperbole or melodrama, it's exactly what happened. Everyone was completely safe and happy playing at the park until the police showed up and killed a kid.

Even the caller across the street from the park thought it was a fake gun. Did you even listen to the 911 call? He's just describing kids playing in the park. At one point he even says he's on the swing set. So they were safe and happy playing in the park until the police showed up and murdered one of them.

It's obvious here that all you've done is create a false narrative in your head about what happened fueled by your hatred for cops.

 

[Draka]

You know, this is a big problem I have with the population at-large. Granted, I may be making sweeping statements here, but it seems to me that there is such an animosity by civilians towards LEOs. 99.99% of LEOs are ordinary guys and gals doing a job. It's when the "cop-haters" butts are saved by the cops, people start singing a different tune. I just don't get this.

It is sad. Honestly, my father was a volunteer Sheriff's deputy, my hubby was Security Police for the AF, and I had actually started the process of joining the SDPD before I decided to move back to Iowa to be closer to family. And though not really the same thing, I was a Brig runner and also did a stint working Restriction Barracks while in the Navy. People who work as any form of law enforcement are just regular people most of the time. Doing so because they feel they can make a difference. Like many things it is the bad apples, which there are in every walk of life, that people want to focus and judge others upon. And there really isn't a whole field that is nothing but bad apples.

 

[HonestJoe]

It's idiotic to expect police to follow laws? I'm sorry, but THAT is the idiotic position.

No, it's idiotic to expect police to follow the exactly the same laws. Sometimes they should follow stricter ones.

And police actually don't have more responsibilities and expectations than the general public. The Supreme Court ruled that police don't have an obligation to protect and serve.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

There clearly are expectations. That's why it was the police who were called to deal with the report of the boy waving a gun around in the first place.

You never answered my key question. If your view of the police were true, what would be the point in having them at all? If all they're expected and permitted to do is exactly the same as the rest of us, why aren't we all just doing it?

 

[Riverwolf]

Reading through this thread, I'm starting to sense something.

This incident seems to be being considered as akin to a lot of police brutality that happens in parts of the US. Instances when, for example, someone is cuffed and subdued, then shot anyway. Or shot when they have their hands up. To say nothing of the riots and massacres.

But when I look at this situation, I'm not seeing any of that. It's very tempting for me to do so, however, in light of my own agreement and support of the recent proposals to require all cops, especially armed ones, to carry self-mounted cameras while on-duty as a way to help cut down on the brutality. Such a thing would also really help us know for sure what happened in a case like this; we weren't there, and all we have is eyewitness testimony.

But here's what I'm getting.

1. A juvenile was pointing a realistic-looking toy gun at a lot of people in a park.
2. Someone in that park called 911.
3. The 911 dispatcher made an error in judgment by saying the gun may have been fake.
4. The two cops arrived.

Now, here's where I'm getting fuzzy. The boy, when the officers demanded that he put his hands up, reached for the realistic-looking toy gun. I ask: what does that mean? Obviously he wasn't holding the gun if he was reaching for it. Was it in his pocket? On the ground? On a table? On a fake holster? A detail like that is important, I think, in determining whether or not the potential danger was high enough to justify lethal force.

Either way,

5. They saw the juvenile not holding the realistic-looking toy gun, but apparently still within easy reach.
6. The cops at this point did not see toy gun, or even necessarily juvenile. They saw: person with gun.
7. They told the juvenile to put his hands up. This is in accordance with proper procedure.
8. The juvenile reached for the toy gun.

At this point is where he made his deadly mistake. If the cops tell you to put your hands up, you put your bloody hands up. Do what the cops tell you; if there's a problem, take it up with their authorities later. (Another reason I support mounted cop-cams.)

I don't know what he intended to do. I can speculate a few things, but I feel talking about them here, without knowing him personally, would be a grave disservice. Such speculation could just easily be me applying the stereotype of the gun-enthusiastic teenager (whom I remember from school to be largely jerks) to a person I don't know.

Regardless of the reason, the final result is that the police judged, in the span of a few seconds, that the potential danger to himself, his partner, and the civilians, was high enough to justify lethal force.

No matter how I look at all of this, I'm not seeing an example of police brutality, here. And trust me: I'm just as worried about that as anyone else. Third time stating this, and I saw a tweet from Tamir's mother stating that this is what she's pushing for, I wholly support cops being required to wear cameras at all times. Police brutality is a real problem in many areas. But this particular incident, based on my above stated perception, isn't an example of the very real rampant brutality that exists in too many areas.

I'm judging this to be a tragically deadly accident.

And based on this tragic accident, I'm standing with the people in this thread who are calling out the toy manufacturers as the primary ones at fault here, if anyone is. I understand the desire to play with toys that look realistic. It allows more immersive role-playing. It's just more satisfying to play Duck Hunt with the grey zapper, rather than the orange one. Megatron turning into a gun is bad***. Nintendo's own Wii-remote gun-thing is atrocious; the third-party one that's actually shaped like a gun is awesome. But these things are simply too dangerous, because of potential accidents like this. LARPers and cosplayers understand this.

So, yes, much as it pains me because I prefer these types of toys as much as the next guy, I, too, will support the banning of realistic-looking toy guns. Not for the influence they may have on children, but because the potential for accidents like this is too great.

 

[roger1440]

Having talked to an officer I know, he said that in such situations aiming for an appendage rather than the trunk is far too risky. Missing is often as likely as hitting, and the trunk offers a far better chance of hitting.

The officer you know is correct. Time does not allow second guessing. The threat must be taking out. If someone is pointing a gun at you, are you going to ask yourself, "If I shoot him in the foot, will he shoot back?"

 

[turk179]

I am a former cop who sees corruption, conspiracy and excessive force in most Youtube videos and news articles involving a police incident. I usually ask myself how I would handle myself if presented with the same situation. Although one doesn't know for sure until they actually are in the situation, I can't see myself handling this situation any differently as much as my heart would break afterwords.

 

[Jainarayan]

I am a former cop who sees corruption, conspiracy and excessive force in most Youtube videos and news articles involving a police incident. I usually ask myself how I would handle myself if presented with the same situation. Although one doesn't know for sure until they actually are in the situation, I can't see myself handling this situation any differently as much as my heart would break afterwords.

This may not make sense, there may be a flaw in my logic, but why is it that no one is ever able to catch you guys (and gals) on phone cams helping people, or bringing a situation to a peaceful resolution? Because it doesn't make good press or news ratings, and it's boring. Please note my excessive sarcasm, because it should be clear by now I have the utmost respect for the boys and girls in blue (or Dukes of Hazzard uniforms ).

 

[oldbadger]

It's not hyperbole or melodrama, it's exactly what happened. Everyone was completely safe and happy playing at the park until the police showed up and killed a kid.

Ha ha! Cherry picking the possibilities, are we?
So if the kid had been a gang member (oh yes!) with a real gun and shot somebody, but the police had either not appeared or just backed off and watched until it suddenly happened, a dead innocent member of the public...... I think that your post might just possibly be criticising the cops..... but the other way around.

You gotta admit it...... you're posts are just prejudiced against cops...... true? I think so.

 

[Jainarayan]

Ha ha! Cherry picking the possibilities, are we?
So if the kid had been a gang member (oh yes!) with a real gun and shot somebody, but the police had either not appeared or just backed off and watched until it suddenly happened, a dead innocent member of the public...... I think that your post might just possibly be criticising the cops..... but the other way around.

You gotta admit it...... you're posts are just prejudiced against cops...... true? I think so.

When it comes right down to it, cops are in a no-win situation any way you cut it:

They shoot, they're the bad guys.
They don't shoot, someone gets killed, they're the bad guys.
They don't shoot, they get killed.

Lose/lose..

 

[Ouroboros]

I am a former cop who sees corruption, conspiracy and excessive force in most Youtube videos and news articles involving a police incident.

It's a bit of a propaganda war going one, where anything in the law enforcement is targeted. Not saying that there are bad cops or that are things going on right now that I'm concerned about (stockpiling military grade weapons and the increased use of SWAT), but in general, the police has a extremely difficult job, and people and media is currently in this mode of blaming every situation on the police. The strange things is, there's rarely any news about how the police helps and saves people's lives. For instance, wasn't Darren Wilson helping to save a child when he got heard the call about the suspect, and he finished up there first to help the child and family. That fact is brushed away by media and everyone. He was actually saving lives moments before, so if he was some kind of "psychopath on a killing streak," he wasn't 10 minutes earlier. The reporting is very unfair. I think media wants the rally up people against the police force. Why? I don't know.

I usually ask myself how I would handle myself if presented with the same situation. Although one doesn't know for sure until they actually are in the situation,

Agree. It's easy to sit and judge in a nice chair and be able to consider 100 different options, even including bringing in Batman and using a time machine, but no one of us knows how it would be in the situation, stressful, not knowing what's going on or what's happening, and have to not only protect yourself, but your partner, and the people around.

I can't see myself handling this situation any differently as much as my heart would break afterwords.

I never been in one, but I can for sure understand that I could in a scary situation do something similar. It's easy to look back on the event and say "it was a mistake" but it's not so easy to do smack-middle in it when everything happens within 3 seconds. There's no time to consider 20 options and weigh them to see which one has the best outcome. There's no time, and the first thought is most likely the first and only decision that comes to mind.

 

[JerryL]

It's not hyperbole or melodrama, it's exactly what happened. Everyone was completely safe and happy playing at the park until the police showed up and killed a kid.

Based on the fact that someone called 911, I would disagree that everyone was happy.

But that's not really the point, is it? A thousand times a day someone is not safe and the police come and improve the situation. Sometimes, someone who thinks they were not safe actually was. But we are not omniscient. If you are going to protect the public from gun-toting murders, and if kids playing are going to imitate them so closely as to be functionally indistinguishable from them, crap like this is going to happen.

I was right in front with criticizing the police officer who shot the man grabbing his cane out of the back of his car. I agree that the man should not have done it. I understand that it was tense for the officer. I believe that what he did was consistent with the training he received; but I still believe he should have taken the risk and waited until he actually identified a weapon in that case. (

)

There's also this case Cops shoot and kill man holding toy gun in Wal-Mart | MSNBC , where again I think that the police over-reacted. They failed to give the man the opportunity to comply. Again I understand why they felt in danger; but again I feel they had a duty to be in some danger to allow the opportunity to avoid the shooting.

As far as I can tell in this case the police both verified that there was a weapon (yes, it turned out to be a fake one, but that was not reasonably determinable) and also gave the victim the opportunity to comply and surrender. Instead he threatened the officers (according to what information I have at present). Shooting someone who, after you have identified yourself and instructed them to surrender, then points a firearm at you is pretty much the definition of "justified".

 

[suncowiam]

Shooting someone who, after you have identified yourself and instructed them to surrender, then points a firearm at you is pretty much the definition of "justified".

I would consider anyone pointing a gun at me as justification for self-defense. In that miniscule time span, I'm not going to go into 20 questions to justify my next actions.

So what's your definition of justification for such cases. Are you willing to wait for the first shot to be made before you consider it justifiable to shoot back? Odds are against you if you choose to do so.

Frankly, people "under-react" when their lives are not on the line.

I blame parents for giving toy guns to their kids and not instructing them when and where is proper to play with the gun. There were many to blame for such a tragic incident but it does not solely fall on the officer. The kid, the parents, the operator and maybe the police organization should update their procedures on how to better deal with such incidents.

 

[JerryL]

So what's your definition of justification for such cases. Are you willing to wait for the first shot to be made before you consider it justifiable to shoot back? Odds are against you if you choose to do so.

I would say that having identified yourself, issued an instruction, verified that there was a weapon (even if in this case the verification was technically wrong), and having a threatening (non-compliant) action taken with that weapon, while not being a "definition", would be a good example of justification.

Did you actually read my post? Your comments make me feel you are responding to the opposite of what i said.

Frankly, people "under-react" when their lives are not on the line.

I've spent time on the street in uniform.

I blame parents for giving toy guns to their kids and not instructing them when and where is proper to play with the gun. There were many to blame for such a tragic incident but it does not solely fall on the officer. The kid, the parents, the operator and maybe the police organization should update their procedures on how to better deal with such incidents.

I don't think it falls on the officer *at all*. I think, in this case, the officers acted appropriately. It is a tragedy that a 12-year-old was killed.

 

[freethinker44]

Video's out. The cops roll up and immediately open fire. I'm glad they released video, it's actually worse than how I pictured it in my mind. Some kid minding his own business until some cop thought he was going to be an action hero rockstar. It would almost be comical if a kid wasn't murdered for it.

 

[Nada]

Video's out. The cops roll up and immediately open fire. I'm glad they released video, it's actually worse than how I pictured it in my mind. Some kid minding his own business until some cop thought he was going to be an action hero rockstar. It would almost be comical if a kid wasn't murdered for it.

Where did you see this video?

 

[suncowiam]

I would say that having identified yourself, issued an instruction, verified that there was a weapon (even if in this case the verification was technically wrong), and having a threatening (non-compliant) action taken with that weapon, while not being a "definition", would be a good example of justification.

Did you actually read my post? Your comments make me feel you are responding to the opposite of what i said.

I've spent time on the street in uniform.

I don't think it falls on the officer *at all*. I think, in this case, the officers acted appropriately. It is a tragedy that a 12-year-old was killed.

I misread your previous post. Sorry.

 

[Jainarayan]

Video's out. The cops roll up and immediately open fire. I'm glad they released video, it's actually worse than how I pictured it in my mind. Some kid minding his own business until some cop thought he was going to be an action hero rockstar. It would almost be comical if a kid wasn't murdered for it.

You have to be trolling now.

 

[freethinker44]

Where did you see this video?

WATCH | Tamir Rice shooting video

 

[Draka]

Hard to tell from that distance, or with the car blocking some view, not to mention the choppiness of the video exactly what transpired. Possible the cop was telling him through the window to put his hands up. I never saw his hands go up, they were down at his sides where he was keeping the gun in his pants. Things like that happen split second. If there were some dash cam recording, better would be personal cams, with sound of course, then what happened would be clearer. I don't know if that video is really enough to condemn the officer. I just have a hard time with that.

Of course this is bringing about protests again. This inane thought that all cops want to do is go around killing people with no reason whatsoever.