Cop murders 12 year old boy

[Father Heathen]

Instead of faulting cops for doing as they're trained, or blaming toy and airgun manufacturers for the fact that people can alter them to look real by painting them or by removing the orange or yellow tip, why not fault parents who fail to teach their kids responsibility and proper behavior (i.e. not to idolize or emulate ghetto gangsta thug culture, as an example), especially in regards to guns that are real or appear to be real? Brats shouldn't be the rest of society's responibility and burden.

 

[oldbadger]

What's wrong with marksmanship as a sport or past time? How is it different from archery or darts as a sport or past time? Also, why would teaching a kid proper gun safety and responsible use and handling be a bad thing?

Can you read?
If so, try reading the content of my post again, because you obviously didn't understand it the first time round.

 

[Woodrow LI]

I grant this may really be stretching it, almost to breaking, but is it possible the kid knew exactly what he was doing, and what the outcome would be?

And btw, it's just a question, not a judgement. So please leave my throat just where it is.

Valid assumption. A possibility that should be considered.

In Vietnam more than a few American Soldiers were killed by Vietcong that were 12 years old or even younger..

Even here in our own history there were 12 year old soldiers in several wars. A 12 year old can be quite capable of many things.

I am not saying the young man was responsible, but it is a valid possibility to look into.

 

[oldbadger]

Great article.

Even to a lesser degree, you establish a respect for the destructive power and positive potential of a gun, when introduced to it by an adult at a young age - in a straight forward and honest manner. My Dad didn't offer to teach us to shoot until we were older, but, I'd been to a shooting range as a young kid. I'd seen my Dad load, unload & clean his guns on many occasions. I'd held a loaded and unloaded gun. I understood how the safety worked, how the gun worked and why I wasn't qualified to touch a gun without my Dad helping me.

The lesson was always the same. This is a dangerous weapon. It has lethal potential. These are also uses for this gun, if used properly. But, you are to stay away from these guns when they're put up.

I never questioned that. I never needed to. There was a trust established between my Dad and my sisters and I, so I can relate to what's conveyed in the article in a personal way.

And, I would have known better than Tamir at 12 years of age. There's no way in hell my parents would have let me out the door and to the park with an air gun.

Fair enough. I was wildfowling alone over English marshes at 13yrs with a sixteen bore. But that wouldn't be allowed here today.

 

[Jainarayan]

Valid assumption. A possibility that should be considered.

Which will not come to light one way or another until the investigation is completed, and his background probed. My thought was that if the kid had some sort of problems, might it have been suicide by cop? I said it was stretching it for the very reason we don't know anything about the kid or his family, and it's probably wild speculation on my part. Which doesn't help. But I think nothing should ever be ruled out.

 

[Father Heathen]

Can you read?
If so, try reading the content of my post again, because you obviously didn't understand it the first time round.

I thought you were being sarcastic by juxtapositioning that article with this news story. Sorry if I misundersrood.

 

[oldbadger]

I thought you were being sarcastic by juxtapositioning that article with this news story. Sorry if I misundersrood.

Well..... I might have been. I was bored and fancied setting a snare to snaggle anybody heated enough to respond. Sorry I was rude.

I just think that these situations are very very dreadful. I guess that we'll never know what was in the boy's mind on that occasion.

 

[Ouroboros]

I grant this may really be stretching it, almost to breaking, but is it possible the kid knew exactly what he was doing, and what the outcome would be?

And btw, it's just a question, not a judgement. So please leave my throat just where it is.

There's been shootings involving juveniles shooting cops. I think there's been 2 or 3 of them this year. Not as newsworthy when it happens, and no one brings up the skin color either in those cases. One case, a 17 y.o. shot another 17 y.o. How would the cop know the difference between a capable 17 yo, 15, 12, or whatever age? During that time there's a lot of growth at different times. We have a neighbor, and their son over 6 ft, he's around 13. The only way a cop would know is... ask them... but what if they don't answer but instead reaches for their gun, like in this case? I think people expect cops to be superman and have the ability to read minds.

 

[Jainarayan]

I think people expect cops to be superman and have the ability to read minds.

I absolutely agree with this, and all the preceding in your post. A split second decision that could mean life or death for the cop. People don't seem to realize that cops have a right to live too. I rarely hear of a cop being praised and honored for saving someone's life, only condemnation (based on emotion) when s/he feels threatened enough to shoot someone.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Isn't it annoying when people take an honest and objective look at the facts rather than, as a knee-jerk reaction, hop aboard whatever bandwagon happens to be popular or emotionally appealing?

It's just as annoying to be portrayed as somebody who doesn't look at facts, FH.

Let's - yet again - stop making this about me and look at the argument. I predicted correctly that people would say the kid brought it on himself, so take an example from your wife and treat me with more respect next time if you disagree.

 

[Ouroboros]

I absolutely agree with this, and all the preceding in your post. A split second decision that could mean life or death for the cop. People don't seem to realize that cops have a right to live too. I rarely hear of a cop being praised and honored for saving someone's life, only condemnation (based on emotion) when s/he feels threatened enough to shoot someone.

That's right. My best friend is an acclaimed and honored cop in LA. He has saved a multitude of lives and received medals. His attitude is, if someone, human or animal is in distress, he'll run, jump through fire, anything to save that person, but if someone points a gun to him, he will react without thought and finish it. Several of his friends in the force has been killed by random and stupid situations like regular traffic stops and someone (teenager quite common) pulls a gun from the car and shoots. They truly do risk their lives everyday. My friend is on sick leave by the way because of severe injuries he got during saving people's lives. He might not be able to go back to work, but forced to retire.

With that said, yes, there are corrupt and bad cops out there too. I've met several of them as well. I knew someone, and I know someone else who wanted to be cop for the reason of just carrying a gun and fight people. He didn't pass the evals though. Luckily for everyone else...

 

[freethinker44]

I think people expect cops to be superman and have the ability to read minds.

I expect cops to be held to the same standards and laws that govern everyone else. If the 911 caller, instead of calling the police, went into the park and pulled a gun on the kid and shot him the same way the cops did, would it still have been justified?

 

[Ouroboros]

I expect cops to be held to the same standards and laws that govern everyone else. If the 911 caller, instead of calling the police, went into the park and pulled a gun on the kid and shot him the same way the cops did, would it still have been justified?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends. Police do have a mandate from us, from society, through how we have elected and voted for bills in the past. Democracy has, even if you or I haven't personally, created this force with the right to kill if there's an imminent threat. The law don't hold the cops to the same standards of prosecution, unfortunately, but it's a very difficult thing to do. We should.

 

[HonestJoe]

I expect cops to be held to the same standards and laws that govern everyone else. If the 911 caller, instead of calling the police, went into the park and pulled a gun on the kid and shot him the same way the cops did, would it still have been justified?

Sorry but that is an idiotic position. If the caller had somehow apprehended the boy, searched him, confiscated the gun and locked him up until his parents paid bail money, that wouldn't be justified either. Equally though, if the caller had decided it was just a toy and continued on his way but the boy ended up shooting someone with what was actually a real gun, the caller wouldn't be held legally responsible for the error in judgement.

The police are expected to do more than the rest of us so they need greater powers and resources. The need (and have) greater responsibilities and expectations too of course. If you expect the police to work with exactly the same laws and resources as everyone else, what's the point of having the police at all? I'll tell you the point, it's because you and I aren't willing to seek out and tackle the armed criminals (or children we'd mistake for armed criminals) ourselves.

 

[ImaTroll]

A gun's lethality isn't lessened by the age of whoever pulls the trigger. Also, it wasn't like this was some toddler waddling down the street in its diapers.

if the boy had been threatening people with a rubber ducky as a weapon instead of a gun, the police still probably would have shot him.

 

[Jainarayan]

I expect cops to be held to the same standards and laws that govern everyone else. If the 911 caller, instead of calling the police, went into the park and pulled a gun on the kid and shot him the same way the cops did, would it still have been justified?

That's called vigilantism. LEOs are not vigilantes. They are legally empowered and licensed to carry firearms for the protection of the public... to protect and serve. People seem hellbent on vilifying and crucifying the cop, but I wonder what would be their reactions if they were in the park, soiling their pants while a gun is being waved at them. Then the cop would be a hero to them no doubt.

 

[freethinker44]

They are legally empowered and licensed to carry firearms for the protection of the public... to protect and serve.

Ironically, the only danger to the public that day was the police.

There are so many news stories like that too, where the police show up and make the situation worse.

 

[freethinker44]

Sorry but that is an idiotic position. If the caller had somehow apprehended the boy, searched him, confiscated the gun and locked him up until his parents paid bail money, that wouldn't be justified either. Equally though, if the caller had decided it was just a toy and continued on his way but the boy ended up shooting someone with what was actually a real gun, the caller wouldn't be held legally responsible for the error in judgement.

The police are expected to do more than the rest of us so they need greater powers and resources. The need (and have) greater responsibilities and expectations too of course. If you expect the police to work with exactly the same laws and resources as everyone else, what's the point of having the police at all? I'll tell you the point, it's because you and I aren't willing to seek out and tackle the armed criminals (or children we'd mistake for armed criminals) ourselves.

It's idiotic to expect police to follow laws? I'm sorry, but THAT is the idiotic position.

And police actually don't have more responsibilities and expectations than the general public. The Supreme Court ruled that police don't have an obligation to protect and serve.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

 

[Jainarayan]

Ironically, the only danger to the public that day was the police.

It's hyperbole and melodrama like that spread all over the internet that exacerbate an already tragic event. The police posed no danger to the rest of the people in the park.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Instead of faulting cops for doing as they're trained, or blaming toy and airgun manufacturers for the fact that people can alter them to look real by painting them or by removing the orange or yellow tip, why not fault parents who fail to teach their kids responsibility and proper behavior (i.e. not to idolize or emulate ghetto gangsta thug culture, as an example), especially in regards to guns that are real or appear to be real? Brats shouldn't be the rest of society's responibility and burden.

As some one who grew up in a rural area during the 1940s I can remember some lessons I learned at a very young age, about 5 years old

1. Never point a gun at anything you do not plan to kill

2. There is no such thing as an unloaded gun

3. There is no such thing as a toy gun, every gun is real, loaded and ready to fire.

I never did have a toy gun but by the age of 7 had a 22 rifle and a 20 ga Mossberg. I was putting meat on the table and never realized some kids thought guns were toys.