Cops catch 'em, Courts jail 'em Obama turns 'em loose!

[suncowiam]

Of course, and when one is in that mind, one needs to be kept away from the public, until they are so called sane.

I feel this is a valid point. Not in the sense of long term incarceration but people on substances simply do not rationalize as a sober person. That's why we don't allow folks to drive and such under the influence.

If we legalized drugs then there has to be a haven or laws for folks to isolate themselves. There's no way I would interact with people knowing that they are on the more hardcore substances. That is a danger to the public.

 

[jeager106]

Addictive BEHAVIOR is very hard to change.
Generally it take about a full YEAR to overcome the behavior, the thought patterns.
Physical recovery, while difficult, is only the first step.
Changing the thought patterns takes far more time than most might think.
Relapse is all too common. This is a prime reason the addict MUST concentrate
on changing the behavior, the thought patterns.
Sadly most people that attempt recovery don't realize this.
Without a program of recovery, associating with recovering people or if you prefer, recovered
people, is key.
Ergo attending, A.A., N.A, C.A. etc. is almost essential. There are even S.A. and G.A.
recovery meetings, all free to the recovering person.
( S.A. = Sex Addiction, G.A. = Gambling, C.A. = Cocaine, etc.)

https://www.sobernation.com/list-of-12-step-programs/

All based on the 12 steps of A.A.

Bill W. and Dr. Bob really nailed it.

I've know others that cold turkey quit whatever the addiction was.
They, however, were still affected by the isms. The substance was gone or the negative
actions such as sex/gambling were gone but they isms were still there.
In other words there can be NO spiritual growth without following the steps. (not religion)
Growth is key.
I don't want to just not use. I want to grow along spiritual lines. Self improvement.

http://12step.org/the-12-steps/

 

[jeager106]

I might add that pretty soon I'll be able to walk on water.

JOKE!!!!!
I can't even swim!

 

[Scott C.]

As terrible as it may sound, the system isn't broken he is. Your criminal record is like evidence of your untrustworthiness, and if you've got one like that of course no one is going to hire you. He picked his choices -- the first time he screwed up he was a juvi and told he was wrong, and he decided, "oh well, I'm doing it again." I mean, I'm not trying to criticize but I think it's pretty arrogant to blame the local government or anyone else for his failings. We all screw up, but it is our faults not someone else's.

I have no idea what this modern pity party thing is -- if you screw up and break the law (whatever that law is) you are going to get about one warning. After that, you know what you are doing and you have absolutely no right to complain.

I don't believe that addiction is that simple. Yes, he made bad choices, which probably enabled the addiction, but once addicted, I don't know how any of us would fare. I don't blame the government for his addiction. But felonies should be very serious crimes. Forging prescriptions or calling the pharmacy and pretending that you're a doctor, so you can get your meds, should not be a felony. If there's robbery or burglary or assault, etc., that would rise to the level of a felony. There were no such crimes and no drug dealing. It was all about hurting nobody but himself as he tried to figure out how to get the prescriptions that he craved. A long list of felony convictions of this nature is very different from a list of convictions for other crimes IMO. But the system does not differentiate. I don't blame an employer for being leery to hire a recovering addict, but the system labels him as a greater criminal than he is, which greatly harms him as he tries to get his life together. The odd thing is that in CA, I believe his crimes are not felonies. Yet CA will not give him a license to enter homes, because he was convicted of felonies in Utah, which are not felonies in CA. Those parts of the system are broken.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I just feel drug addicts are human refuse. We need to spend our time making things better for the people who make life better instead of devoting time to the pity party. I don't feel that users and abusers are the same people either. They choose to become losers by continuing to engaging in activities that they know are going to make them worthless. I have no sympathy whatsoever, unless the drug was forced upon them against their will.

Screw jail, screw treatment, just ignore them. They're ignoring everyone else, the selfish little gits.

Drug addicts are just people. Nobody chooses to be a drug addict. They need help, rather than scorn.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ha! Do some googling and learn how many employed people are alcoholic and how
much treatment costs insurance.
I personally know a guy who has been to THIRTY rehabs.
Yup, THIRTY.
Who pays for that? He works for G.M and has FREE insurance that the G.M
consumer pays for.
He's been at G.M 29 years. One wonders how many days of those years he actually
worked?
I worked eight years for G.M and know the cost of absenteeism, did a paper
on that for college.

What about the huge increase in people addicted to illegal drugs?
Ignore that? Cocaine use is epidemic in the U.S.
More laws? More prisons? Decriminalize illegal drug use?
Frankly I just don't know.
Decriminalizing drugs like cocaine and heroine WILL lower the number of
users in jail. But will that stop illegal hard drug use?
I kinda doubt that.

You know what's epidemic in the US? Addiction to prescription meds. They kill more people than heroin and cocaine combined. Teens have an especially high risk of abusing such drugs. We need to do something about that.

 

[suncowiam]

Drug addicts are just people. Nobody chooses to be a drug addict. They need help, rather than scorn.

I have to disagree. There is choice to even becoming and not becoming an addict. I'm not suggesting that it will be easy but it must start with the individual.

If there isnt a choice then all addicts are doomed. That could lend to the argument of preventing and abolishment.

 

[suncowiam]

Drug addicts are just people. Nobody chooses to be a drug addict. They need help, rather than scorn.

Let me put this another way. The choice to ingest any substance is the action of consuming it. By consuming it, the user assumes all effects of the substance good or bad. So ignorance of unknown effects are not reason enough to bypass personal responsibility.

 

[YmirGF]

There will always be people who don't want help or can't be helped, but I don't think that's true for most.

I know what you mean, Frankie. A couple of weeks ago I was in the city and walking to my next appointment. Along the way I passed this miserable creature who asked me for money. She was missing half her teeth, probably hadn't had a good bath or shower in weeks and yet, in her eyes, I saw clearly, at one time this poor wretch was probably a lovely person. I haven't been struck by that feeling in a very long while. In a flash I recognized that she had made a lot of very poor choices. I reached in my pocket and pulled out the change I had and put it into her hand. She was actually quite articulate which further supported my feeling that she was behind all her sorrow - a good person - caught in a horrible web. And... I gave her the money knowing full well that she would likely use it to buy drugs... ... my reasoning was if more people reached out to her, one day she might just reach out herself... and take back the life she once knew.

 

[jeager106]

You know what's epidemic in the US? Addiction to prescription meds. They kill more people than heroin and cocaine combined. Teens have an especially high risk of abusing such drugs. We need to do something about that.

I know that.
I CAN'T GET MY MEDS because of people conning docs out of drugs then
selling them on the streets for $10 bucks or more per pill.
So I quit taking narcotic script for pain. Guess what?
My doc found NON narcotic meds, LESS dangerous, NON addictive and they work!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yea it is, they chose to become the way they are. They are responsible for their actions on the junk. If they don't like what they are doing they can put down the heroin, crack, meth, and whatever else and go back to whatever normal is. But, they don't want that -- they want to make their lives miserable and the lives of everyone else around them miserable. Selfish as hell...

You really think addicts enjoy their lives as addicts? Addiction is a sign of a much deeper problem that has never been dealt with. Most people aren't equipped to deal with issues like that.
Nobody just says, "I feel being an addict today, because it seems so fun. I'm gonna shoot up some heroin."

It's easy to say "just put down the drugs" when you don't have a psychological and physical dependence on it.

 

[jeager106]

Wanna know what I think we should do about illegal drug USE???

I did't think so.

LET DOPERS USE 'EM!
Let'em get sick and tired of being sick and tired or let 'em end up in prison, or
institutions, and broke, with nothing to show for their worthless lives.
Doper = LOOSER.
Let'em be that.
When they are 50 or 60 IF they live that long they will live out lives as broken
people. Consequences ya know.

 

[jeager106]

You really think addicts enjoy their lives as addicts? Addiction is a sign of a much deeper problem that has never been dealt with. Most people aren't equipped to deal with issues like that.
Nobody just says, "I feel being an addict today, because it seems so fun. I'm gonna shoot up some heroin."

It's easy to say "just put down the drugs" when you don't have a psychological and physical dependence on it.

Have YOU been addicted?
Sure sounds like it OR you have GREAT insight!

Stopping addiction is a $itch! Recognizing one NEEDS to stop is even *****ier.
( I made up a new word. Get over it.)
Most people that kick addiction WITH help and relaps are ones that don't change
their lives sufficiently.
That includes people, places, and things, in the addicts former life.
Clean places for clean people and a SUPPORT group like A.A., N.A. etc.
Still..................."if ya don't wanna, ya' ain't gonna."

Alcoholism killed most of the men on dad and mom's sides of our family.
Nearly killed me.
I attend at least FIVE A.A. meetings a week. When I feel I don't need a meeting
THAT is clearly when I DO need a meeting.
Clean places and clean people.
There are those that get sick and tired of being sick and tired and quit without
any help.
Sadly they still have the "ism" without the substance.
No spiritual growth. (read they are still butt wipes.)
If someone wants to drink or drug themselves into oblivion there really isn't much
that can be done to change them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have to disagree. There is choice to even becoming and not becoming an addict. I'm not suggesting that it will be easy but it must start with the individual.

If there isnt a choice then all addicts are doomed. That could lend to the argument of preventing and abolishment.

There's no choice involved in becoming a drug addict. Who would choose that?

Trying to quit is a conscious choice, but even then you're fighting against your brain's addiction to the chemical, your psychological addiction to the chemical and the environmental stimuli that trigger the physical and psychological need for that chemical, your body's physical dependence on the chemical, to name a few things. It's not as easy as some people seem to think, I guess is what I'm saying.

I just hate the attitude that drug addicts are pieces of garbage. They're someone's father, mother, sister, brother, child, etc. They're people who need help.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Have YOU been addicted?
Sure sounds like it OR you have GREAT insight!

Thanks! Actually I am addicted to cigarettes. I avoid drinking because I've got a family history of alcohol and drug abuse, and I know I'd probably develop a problem.

My father was an alcoholic for his entire life. After a terrible car accident, he then became addicted to prescription meds which eventually escalated into a cocaine/crack addiction (that ended up killing him). So I guess you could say I have some experience with this stuff. Since his death, I've decided to get into addictions counseling to try to help people like him, and that's what I'm working on now. So it's nice to hear that I know a little about what I'm talking about.

Stopping addiction is a $itch! Recognizing one NEEDS to stop is even *****ier.
( I made up a new word. Get over it.)

I love new words.

Most people that kick addiction WITH help and relaps are ones that don't change
their lives sufficiently.
That includes people, places, and things, in the addicts former life.
Clean places for clean people and a SUPPORT group like A.A., N.A. etc.
Still..................."if ya don't wanna, ya' ain't gonna."

. It's one thing to go into rehab, but the real test comes when you get out and have to return to some kind of life. Even just being in an environment that reminds you of the place you used to do drugs is enough to trigger cravings. I don't think people realize stuff like that a lot of the time.

But yeah, if ya don't wanna, ya ain't gonna. Even if you wanna, there's no guarantee.

My dad genuinely wanted to quit. He went to rehab more times than I can count. I used to go to AA meetings with him. He really and truly wanted his life back. But he couldn't do it. I always figure he must have had some deep emotional issues that he just couldn't handle. I always felt like he was too sensitive for this world.

Alcoholism killed most of the men on dad and mom's sides of our family.
Nearly killed me.
I attend at least FIVE A.A. meetings a week. When I feel I don't need a meeting
THAT is clearly when I DO need a meeting.
Clean places and clean people.
There are those that get sick and tired of being sick and tired and quit without
any help.
Sadly they still have the "ism" without the substance.
No spiritual growth. (read they are still butt wipes.)
If someone wants to drink or drug themselves into oblivion there really isn't much
that can be done to change them.

It's a big problem in my family too. Actually, it seems to be quite common.

Good for you for staying clean and doing what it takes to stay there. I know it's not easy. I know I don't know you at all, but I feel proud for you. Is that weird?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I know that.
I CAN'T GET MY MEDS because of people conning docs out of drugs then
selling them on the streets for $10 bucks or more per pill.
So I quit taking narcotic script for pain. Guess what?
My doc found NON narcotic meds, LESS dangerous, NON addictive and they work!

That worked out for the best then maybe.

 

[jeager106]

The tendency for addiction, especially to alcohol does seem to have a genetic
component according to those who do that kind of research.
The specific gene, however, remains allusive.
I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fortunate that my beloved fiance LOVES
going to A.A. meetings with me and has befriended many men and women in
recovery.
I don't think I've been to even one meeting without her.
I have many "dry" friends in recovery.
One of our favorite meetings if for LGBT and us two straight people.
Lotta love there.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The tendency for addiction, especially to alcohol does seem to have a genetic
component according to those who do that kind of research.
The specific gene, however, remains allusive.

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fortunate that my beloved fiance LOVES
going to A.A. meetings with me and has befriended many men and women in
recovery.
I don't think I've been to even one meeting without her.
I have many "dry" friends in recovery.
One of our favorite meetings if for LGBT and us two straight people.
Lotta love there.

There is definitely a genetic component. There are actually several genes involved. (Plus a whole list of other factors)

It's great that you have someone so supportive by your side. I bet it really helps.

 

[jeager106]

Yes^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
It might not be my fault for becoming addicted but it's MY responsibility to recover.
Perhaps I can help others?
I try.
My son, age 45, gets out of prison in a few days and will be paroled to me.
I will help him get stated in his new life by providing him with truck, tools, SUPPORT.
etc.
He's a gifted carpenter.
Heroin got him into burglary to support his addiction.
When he learned he was a person of interest he went to the police and confessed
all and took a terrible hit for that.
6 years in the joint.
He will get all the help he needs from a loving father.
I judge no one.

 

[McBell]

Strawman and a whole 'nuther issue for another post.

If you choose to start another thread could you include just what makes
ethanol a poison?

rather difficult to take you "all drug involvement is violent" rant seriously when you so readily dismiss a drug issue simply because said drug is legal.
Smacks greatly of hypocrisy.