Corporal Punishment Reinstated

[Ashoka]

Hitting is wrong. I hope you are able to work through it with therapy.

I appreciate that. My whole family has been working through it, but of course, those resentments are still there.

 

[Kenny]

But I believe there are multiple factors involved, plus just about every generation thinks its youth are the worse-- including your own parents.

Yes, of course it is more than just one factor. But one thing will be indisputable, the youth of today are definitely in a worse situation (not by their making) than the previous youth.

Though exaggerated somewhat, there is a truth behind this post:
5 Decades School Comparison

 

[Kenny]

I don't see anyone saying that "disciplining is wrong."
What I see are people saying (backed by the evidence) that discipline in the form of physical punishment is harmful to children.
You're just trying to smuggle in spanking under the umbrella of "discipline" as though they are synonymous. You're not the first to try that one and you won't be the last.

I think your statement cuts both ways IMV

 

[Brian2]

Personally, I think that spanking is silly, and those who do so are lacking a part of their brain that tends to inform the rest of us - like evidence:

Study: Spanking Is Bad for Children - The Atlantic

Those who spank have probably had the reasoning part of their brain damaged as children due to fat being dislodged during spanking and causing strokes.
Personally I think it is very difficult to isolate corporal punishment from other determinants in a child's upbringing and claim results that are definitely caused by the corporal punishment.
But I'll take advice from such studies just as probably most parents would. It is important imo to try to see studies like that with eyes open and not to take them as 100% true.

 

[Brian2]

The problem with loving discipline is that the child's brain is not making a distinction between violent hitting or "loving" discipline such as a spanking. The child's brain is experiencing the spanking or a slap to the face the same way. It's physical pain inflicted by another, and that's all the child's brain will know. While the child may be able to rationalize that these two things are not the same, if the child so pleases to, the child will NEVER be able to talk themselves out of the instinct and PTSD that those spankings were painful, abusive, and warnings that the person who inflicted them is a scary person not to be fully trusted. Ever. Very few abused children who frequently received spankings will ever be completely open and honest with their parents, even if their parents think they are.

If anything, the "love" I received from my parents after they hurt me confused me as a child. Why would they hit me if they loved me? Why did they spank me if they could've chosen not to? I distinctly remember one time that my mom cried and said she didn't want to spank me, and she was sorry she had to, and I asked why she had to. Who was making her spank me?

Now I resent my parents. This wasn't love. They loved me, but there was no love in those punishments.

I would say that abuse happens in families where there is spanking as well as those where there is no corporal punishment.
I would also imagine that in families where there is more violent abuse, that corporal punishment would be the most common form of punishment and that those parents would not even be bothering to sus out other forms of discipline. (that would be one factor that makes unbiased study of corporal punishment hard to do fairly.
I cannot judge your parents and upbringing. It sounds like they had been confused in their raising of children and lost some confidence. I know that happened to me.

 

[Brian2]

What you personally believe is in contradiction with all available evidence. You want to just ignore the experts, and go with what you feel instead, which is folly, imo.

Do you really think that corporal punishment would be better for children than no discipline at all?

You and I just acknowledged that parents lacking in parenting skills are often parents who hit their kids, because they aren't aware of the different methods available to them.

Yes that happens.

Why not? I guess you don't realize that when you hit your kids and call it "discipline" that you're teaching them that hitting is how we solve problems. And it certainly is not, given that as an adult, if you hit another adult, we call it assault. Heck, if you hit a dog we call it animal abuse. So why should it be okay to hit children, when it's not okay to hit anyone/anything else?

There are times when it is OK to hit another adult and an animal and when it is not abuse or assault. Similarly with parents and children.
An all out ban is not a good answer. There is a line that can be drawn between abuse and discipline imo.
Of course corporal punishment is no doubt one of those things that is easily misused by parents, but then again any type of discipline can also be easily misused and turn into abuse.

I hope you aren't suggesting that children aren't helpless against a physical attack from an adult - either physically or emotionally.

No, I'm suggesting that the use of "helpless children" by you automatically turns an appropriate punishment into a cruel and heartless attack, just because the parent, the adult, has the advantage of physical size.

You're right, it's not. It's much more delicate. Kids don't have the wisdom, life experience, coping skills, etc. that are all available to adults. Kids don't yet know how to regulate their emotions, for example. I can't see how anyone would think hitting them would be helpful in that area.

Adults don't hit each other to solve their differences or resolve an argument, so why would anyone teach their kids (and that is what you're doing when you're hitting them) that hitting is how we solve our problems in life?

Unless the hitting has been excessively and has been used inappropriately and without talking about why and teaching children, I would say that we aren't teaching out children that hitting is how adults settle differences.
But of course it is no doubt easy to not be the perfect parent and to not use any discipline method absolutely correctly.

Corporal punishment should be demonized and done away with. It has no positive benefits and a ton of negative ones.
We have better methods now, in the 21st Century.

Kids who are spanked before age three are more to express aggressive behaviour.
Kids who are spanked have less gray matter than those who aren't, and are more likely to develop disorders such as depression, addiction and anxiety disorders.
Kids who are spanked are more likely to lie.
These are kind of like, the opposite of what we're going for as parents, right?

Psychiatric News
Parental Spanking Linked to Aggressive Behavior in Children - Child Development Institute
Spanking Linked to Increase in Children’s Behavior Problems
Harsh discipline fosters dishonesty in young children

I would suggest that problems are linked to incorrect use of corporal punishment and I would suggest that other forms of discipline can also be used incorrectly and lead to other problems.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think your statement cuts both ways IMV

What do you mean by that?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you really think that corporal punishment would be better for children than no discipline at all?

No.

Yes that happens.

So then, people who are hitting/spanking their kids are parents who do not have control of the situation or of themselves.

There are times when it is OK to hit another adult and an animal and when it is not abuse or assault. Similarly with parents and children.

The only situation I can think of where hitting another person\animal is okay is if they are trying to attack you. Like, if you're being attacked by a rabid dog or something.

You've passed over my point about how hitting kids teaches them that hitting is how adults resolve their differences with other adults. And that is absolutely not how adults are expected to interact with each other. So why would you teach your kids that? We don't hit other adults just to get them to do what we want them to do. That's assault. And it's a crime.

An all out ban is not a good answer. There is a line that can be drawn between abuse and discipline imo.

Where do you think that line is? When and why is it okay to hit a child?

Of course corporal punishment is no doubt one of those things that is easily misused by parents, but then again any type of discipline can also be easily misused and turn into abuse.

Please don't give me this, other things are abusive too. Of course they can be. But we're talking specifically about hitting children (and calling it "spanking" or "discipline").This isn't like, something we don't know yet. We know that hitting\spanking/disciplining kids or whatever you want to call it, has no positive benefits and a ton of negative outcomes that include depression, lying, behavioural disorders, changes in brain chemistry and anxiety, to name a few. We have developed much more appropriate and useful methods of teaching and disciplining kids that actually demonstrate positive outcomes in raising children into physically and mentally healthy adults.

No, I'm suggesting that the use of "helpless children" by you automatically turns an appropriate punishment into a cruel and heartless attack, just because the parent, the adult, has the advantage of physical size.

Well yeah, that's quite an advantage, wouldn't you say? The physical differences in size between a child and a grown adult absolutely makes a child helpless against said adult. The same way I, as a 5'7" women who weights 110lbs would be pretty helpless against a 6'5" man who weighs 250lbs and works out at the gym every day.

I find it kind of weird to find someone arguing that children aren't physically, emotionally or psychologically helpless against grown adults. That's a strange position to take, imo. I suspect I know why you've taken it here though - for some reason you feel the need to defend corporal punishment at seemingly all costs, including suggesting that children aren't helpless.

Unless the hitting has been excessively and has been used inappropriately and without talking about why and teaching children, I would say that we aren't teaching out children that hitting is how adults settle differences.

You don't? Why not? What do you think hitting kids teaches them about life?

Or perhaps we're teaching kids to punch down and beat up on those who are smaller than they are.

I once wrote a paper on aggressive/violent behaviour in young adults and do you know what I found to be the number one indicator of aggression/violence? A child being exposed to violence in their direct and surrounding environment. So if you want to raise a physically aggressive child, you should probably hit them. If you don't, I would suggest not hitting them and spending some time working on alternative and better effective methods of parenting and discipline.

But of course it is no doubt easy to not be the perfect parent and to not use any discipline method absolutely correctly.

Nobody is expecting a perfect parent. What I am expecting though, is for people to adjust their behaviour toward their children in accordance with the evidence. And all evidence indicates that hitting kids has no positive benefits and a ton of negative outcomes. Continuing to hit your children in full knowledge and light of that evidence makes one at the very least, a lazy or disinterested parent who isn't all that interested in raising a healthy, happy and productive member of society.

I would suggest that problems are linked to incorrect use of corporal punishment and I would suggest that other forms of discipline can also be used incorrectly and lead to other problems.

I would suggest you didn't read any of the articles or studies provided.


"“With spanking, you are showing kids that it is OK to hit people if you would like them to stop what they are doing. Kids learn that this is an appropriate behavior, and it prompts them to become more aggressive,” Ma said. “If more [mental health] programs thought of spanking as an adverse childhood experience, we could then talk about adjusting social norms and attitudes and parental behavior.”
Psychiatric News

"Children who have been spanked by their parents by age 5 show an increase in behavior problems at age 6 and age 8 relative to children who have never been spanked, according to new findings in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science.

The study, which uses a statistical technique to approximate random assignment, indicates that this increase in behavior problems cannot be attributed to various characteristics of the child, the parents, or the home environment – rather, it seems to be the specific result of spanking.

“Our findings suggest that spanking is not an effective technique and actually makes children’s behavior worse not better,” says psychological scientist Elizabeth T. Gershoff (University of Texas at Austin), lead author on the study."
https://www.psychologicalscience.or...-increase-in-childrens-behavior-problems.html

 

[Kenny]

What do you mean by that?

There is evidence that proper loving discipline is beneficial

You're just trying to smuggle in loving discipline under the umbrella of "hitting" as though they are synonymous. You're not the first to try that one and you won't be the last.

 

[Brian2]

No.

No tricking you.

So then, people who are hitting/spanking their kids are parents who do not have control of the situation or of themselves.

Yes that happens.

The only situation I can think of where hitting another person\animal is okay is if they are trying to attack you. Like, if you're being attacked by a rabid dog or something.

You've passed over my point about how hitting kids teaches them that hitting is how adults resolve their differences with other adults. And that is absolutely not how adults are expected to interact with each other. So why would you teach your kids that? We don't hit other adults just to get them to do what we want them to do. That's assault. And it's a crime.

The idea is not to be hitting your kids forever. As they get older they should be treated more like adults and as they get older they should be told what is expected between adults and that should be seen in the example you give.

Where do you think that line is? When and why is it okay to hit a child?

A good example woule be to wake them up to a dangerous situation and to stop unwanted behaviour in that situation, where someone might be hurt.

Please don't give me this, other things are abusive too. Of course they can be. But we're talking specifically about hitting children (and calling it "spanking" or "discipline").This isn't like, something we don't know yet. We know that hitting\spanking/disciplining kids or whatever you want to call it, has no positive benefits and a ton of negative outcomes that include depression, lying, behavioural disorders, changes in brain chemistry and anxiety, to name a few. We have developed much more appropriate and useful methods of teaching and disciplining kids that actually demonstrate positive outcomes in raising children into physically and mentally healthy adults.

And of course if you think that no discipline is better than corporal punishment and that corporal punishment has no redeeming aspect, then that would mean that much of society has been making their kids worse and giving them problems for millenia now and stopping corporal punishment might even cure the world of all it's ills.

Well yeah, that's quite an advantage, wouldn't you say? The physical differences in size between a child and a grown adult absolutely makes a child helpless against said adult. The same way I, as a 5'7" women who weights 110lbs would be pretty helpless against a 6'5" man who weighs 250lbs and works out at the gym every day.

I find it kind of weird to find someone arguing that children aren't physically, emotionally or psychologically helpless against grown adults. That's a strange position to take, imo. I suspect I know why you've taken it here though - for some reason you feel the need to defend corporal punishment at seemingly all costs, including suggesting that children aren't helpless.

I did not deny that children are helpless creatures, both physically and it is good to see that you said in other ways also.

You don't? Why not? What do you think hitting kids teaches them about life?

Or perhaps we're teaching kids to punch down and beat up on those who are smaller than they are.

I once wrote a paper on aggressive/violent behaviour in young adults and do you know what I found to be the number one indicator of aggression/violence? A child being exposed to violence in their direct and surrounding environment. So if you want to raise a physically aggressive child, you should probably hit them. If you don't, I would suggest not hitting them and spending some time working on alternative and better effective methods of parenting and discipline.

Violence begets violence but did your paper show corporal punishment was responsible?

I would suggest you didn't read any of the articles or studies provided.


"“With spanking, you are showing kids that it is OK to hit people if you would like them to stop what they are doing. Kids learn that this is an appropriate behavior, and it prompts them to become more aggressive,” Ma said. “If more [mental health] programs thought of spanking as an adverse childhood experience, we could then talk about adjusting social norms and attitudes and parental behavior.”
Psychiatric News

"Children who have been spanked by their parents by age 5 show an increase in behavior problems at age 6 and age 8 relative to children who have never been spanked, according to new findings in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science.

The study, which uses a statistical technique to approximate random assignment, indicates that this increase in behavior problems cannot be attributed to various characteristics of the child, the parents, or the home environment – rather, it seems to be the specific result of spanking.

“Our findings suggest that spanking is not an effective technique and actually makes children’s behavior worse not better,” says psychological scientist Elizabeth T. Gershoff (University of Texas at Austin), lead author on the study."
Spanking Linked to Increase in Children’s Behavior Problems

OK you have me. Corporal punishment is not an ideal way to discipline kids and should be replace with better methods if and where possible and parents should be taught this and better parenting techniques where and when possible.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is evidence that proper loving discipline is beneficial

Yes, there is. But methods that don't include hitting your kids.

There is no evidence that spanking/hitting your child has any positive benefits for the child. You can keep calling "spanking" discipline all you want, but it doesn't make them synonymous.

You're just trying to smuggle in loving discipline under the umbrella of "hitting" as though they are synonymous. You're not the first to try that one and you won't be the last.

Spanking is hitting. Your hand is making contact against another person's body.
I would submit that you are the one using "discipline" as a euphemism\synonym for "spanking," as I already pointed out. Sorry, but this post just seems to be an exercise in projection.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No tricking you.

Yes that happens.

Great, we agree on that.

The idea is not to be hitting your kids forever. As they get older they should be treated more like adults and as they get older they should be told what is expected between adults and that should be seen in the example you give.

Why hit them at all? Hitting them isn't preparing them for adult world. In adult world, if you hit another adult, you get charged with assault. You've ignored that several times now.

A good example woule be to wake them up to a dangerous situation and to stop unwanted behaviour in that situation, where someone might be hurt.

Words and explanations wouldn't work in such a situation, because ... ?

And of course if you think that no discipline is better than corporal punishment and that corporal punishment has no redeeming aspect, then that would mean that much of society has been making their kids worse and giving them problems for millenia now and stopping corporal punishment might even cure the world of all it's ills.

Corporal punishment has no positive benefits. Everything that comes from it is negative/non-beneficial to the child. If we are looking to raise responsible, healthy and productive members of society, then yes, we need to stop hitting children. I mean, seriously, we've learned that it is harmful. So why would we keep doing it?

I did not deny that children are helpless creatures, both physically and it is good to see that you said in other ways also.

Cool. And agreed. You seemed to be saying the opposite.

Violence begets violence but did your paper show corporal punishment was responsible?

Any and all violence in the child's immediate and surrounding environment, including corporal punishment, is the best indicator of violent and aggressive behaviour in young adults.
Which, if you think about it, actually makes perfect sense. Kids learn by watching what adults do.

OK you have me. Corporal punishment is not an ideal way to discipline kids and should be replace with better methods if and where possible and parents should be taught this and better parenting techniques where and when possible.

Awesome! High five!

I'm all for doing whatever needs to be done to educate and inform parents so they can make the best decisions for their kids. We've learned a lot about childhood development over the last century or so and our techniques should reflect that. We should discard anything that doesn't work, or is found to be harmful and move on to methods that actually do work and are best for our children, physically, psychologically and mentally so they can become the best people they can be.

 

[Kenny]

Yes, there is. But methods that don't include hitting your kids.

There is no evidence that spanking/hitting your child has any positive benefits for the child. You can keep calling "spanking" discipline all you want, but it doesn't make them synonymous.

The best studies demonstrated beneficial, not detrimental, effects of spanking in certain situations. Building upon this review, Dr. Robert E. Larzelere published an exhaustive review of the corporal punishment literature in the October 1996 supplement to Pediatrics. He also found insufficient data to condemn the use of spanking by parents.

To Spank Or Not To Spank

Spanking helps children perform better in school

Spanking makes kids perform better in school, helps them become more successful: study

New Study Finds Spanking Is Good for Kids

New Study Finds Spanking Is Good for Kids - The New American



Of course, my personal experience with my children certainly support this line of thinking.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The best studies demonstrated beneficial, not detrimental, effects of spanking in certain situations. Building upon this review, Dr. Robert E. Larzelere published an exhaustive review of the corporal punishment literature in the October 1996 supplement to Pediatrics. He also found insufficient data to condemn the use of spanking by parents.

1. To Spank Or Not To Spank

First of all, this information is 20 years out of date, and it's writer references (very few) studies that are even older than that. That's the first red flag. Though he couldn't even be bothered to provide actual references to anything he cites. That's the second red flat. Also, he's a medical doctor. Not a psychologist or psychiatrist. That's the third red flag.

Spanking helps children perform better in school

Spanking makes kids perform better in school, helps them become more successful: study

As far as I can tell, this study was never even published. I can't seem to find the actual study anywhere - just reports about it. Also (according to reports), it was based on questionnaire responses and personal reporting. Plus, there is this, "Another finding was that young people who were still being spanked when they were in their teens, displayed behavioural problems." But who really knows, because the study doesn't seem to actually be available anywhere.

New Study Finds Spanking Is Good for Kids

New Study Finds Spanking Is Good for Kids - The New American

This references the exact same unpublished study from above.

So to recap, you've given me one unpublished study based on self-reporting that showed spanking young adults leads to behavioural problems, and a 20+ year old article written by a medical doctor that contains zero references to any other studies. Meanwhile, I could (and have) provided study upon study upon meta-analysis showing the harmful effects of hitting kids. But you want to go with the one unpublished outlier because .... ?

Of course, my personal experience with my children certainly support this line of thinking.

Anecdotal evidence isn't all that helpful here. If it were, any claims of "I was hit and I turned out okay" should be taken at face value, which of course, they should not.

 

[Kenny]

First of all, this information is 20 years out of date, and it's writer references (very few) studies that are even older than that. That's the first red flag. Though he couldn't even be bothered to provide actual references to anything he cites. That's the second red flat. Also, he's a medical doctor. Not a psychologist or psychiatrist. That's the third red flag.

20 years "out of date"? Like all of a sudden "poof" all the evidence went out the window?

So, a doctor can't use his mind? Appeal to authority fallacy.

As far as I can tell, this study was never even published. I can't seem to find the actual study anywhere - just reports about it. Also (according to reports), it was based on questionnaire responses and personal reporting. Plus, there is this, "Another finding was that young people who were still being spanked when they were in their teens, displayed behavioural problems." But who really knows, because the study doesn't seem to actually be available anywhere.

.

Let me see if I understand. You can't find it but it is listed from Psychological magazines to conferences and so, it isn't relevant?

Or is it you didn't really look because it runs crossgrain to your beliefs?

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2466/15.10.49.PR0.112.3.933-975

So, not so anecdotal but rather proof IMO

 

[SkepticThinker]

So, a doctor can't use his mind? Appeal to authority fallacy.

Sorry, what? A doctor can't use his mind? What does that mean? Where did I argue that?

Again, you're projecting, as you are the one making an appeal to authority fallacy here.

A medical doctor who hasn't performed any studies on the subject and who can't even figure out how to properly cite studies in an article he wrote almost 30 years ago. This stuff falls under the psychiatric/psychological field of scientific study.

So what you've decided to do here, is to ignore the bulk of evidence that goes against your beliefs, and you've thrown down on the side of a single outlier, taken from a single study, that as far as I can see, hasn't even been replicated. Do you think that's a logical position to take?

Let me see if I understand. You can't find it but it is listed from Psychological magazines to conferences and so, it isn't relevant?
Or is it you didn't really look because it runs crossgrain to your beliefs?

Nope, I Googled it and got a bunch of media articles about it, none of which cited the actual study in question. By the way, it's not really up to me to find things that you are citing as evidence. That's up to you.

Also, you ignored what I said about what I could glean from the study. Namely, that it is based on self-reporting, rather than observation of behaviours, and that it also determined that, "Another finding was that young people who were still being spanked when they were in their teens, displayed behavioural problems." You've got nothing to say on that except to try to accuse me of pretending to look up the study.

"Recollections of physical discipline as absent, age-delimited (ages
2–11), or present into adolescence were associated with youths’ evaluations of their
mothers’ and fathers’ parenting styles and their own adjustment."

In other words, it's based on kids' assessment of their parents' parenting style.

"The primary limitation of the present research was that like most
studies of physical discipline it relied on a single reporter. Because some
youth who did not recall physical discipline may actually have experienced
physical discipline, particularly during early childhood, it is critical
to reiterate that it was youths’ recollection of physical discipline, not
necessarily the actual experience of physical discipline, which predicted
youths’ current evaluations of maternal and paternal parenting styles and
their own adjustment."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2466/15.10.49.PR0.112.3.933-975

Great, thanks for providing the study.

"The present results need to be replicated with a larger sample that would permit the
comparison of both the magnitude and direction of associations across participants
in various cultural subgroups and stages of life. Frequency-based
studies identifying safe levels of spanking with respect to aggression (e.g.,
Taylor, et al., 2010) need to be expanded to include a greater variety of adjustment
outcomes, especially those pertaining to competent, prosocial behavior."

So again I ask, why are you going with one outlier, while ignoring and discarding the mountain of evidence that is stacked up against that one outlier?

So, not so anecdotal but rather proof IMO

Your reports about what you did with your children are absolutely anecdotal, and biased, to boot.

 

[Vinayaka]

Missouri district reinstates corporal punishment, egged on by parents

SMH.... Really people? Corporal Punishment... it... Doesn't.... Work.

"Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children."

The case against spanking.

I just wish they'd call it by its true name ... assault.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, what? A doctor can't use his mind? What does that mean? Where did I argue that?

Again, you're projecting, as you are the one making an appeal to authority fallacy here.

A medical doctor who hasn't performed any studies on the subject and who can't even figure out how to properly cite studies in an article he wrote almost 30 years ago. This stuff falls under the psychiatric/psychological field of scientific study.

Ummm. no.

You are about to read and make a decision based on your reading. A doctor would probably do it better.

You are using an appeal to Authority fallacy

Nope, I Googled it and got a bunch of media articles about it, none of which cited the actual study in question. By the way, it's not really up to me to find things that you are citing as evidence. That's up to you.

Also, you ignored what I said about what I could glean from the study. Namely, that it is based on self-reporting, rather than observation of behaviours, and that it also determined that, "Another finding was that young people who were still being spanked when they were in their teens, displayed behavioural problems." You've got nothing to say on that except to try to accuse me of pretending to look up the study.

No... I acknowledged that bad discoing creates problems. I think you must have missed that.

Great, thanks for providing the study.

"The present results need to be replicated with a larger sample that would permit the
comparison of both the magnitude and direction of associations across participants
in various cultural subgroups and stages of life. Frequency-based
studies identifying safe levels of spanking with respect to aggression (e.g.,
Taylor, et al., 2010) need to be expanded to include a greater variety of adjustment
outcomes, especially those pertaining to competent, prosocial behavior."

So again I ask, why are you going with one outlier, while ignoring and discarding the mountain of evidence that is stacked up against that one outlier?

Mainly because you missed the point... so let me quote from the sites i listed :
the AAP released a special report that suggests spanking may not be harmful to a child's health. In a supplement to the October 1996 Pediatrics, the cochairpersons, Drs. Stanford Friedman and Kenneth Schonberg of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, summarized thefindingsof an AAP-sponsored conference last year that was devoted to reviewingthe researchon spanking. "Given a relatively 'healthy' family life in a supportive environment, spanking in and of itself is not detrimental to a child or predictive of later problems," they report.

and again:

Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more appropriate and effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking.

What I also find is that whereas I will admit that there are abused to it (I am balanced) - you hold the extreme and no matter what evidence is contrary-wise, you just won't accept it.

So my experience is more of an evidence than anecdotal. Unless you also hold to a variety of positions such as "That you were healed of scurvy because you ate limes is anecdotal and not evidence"

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ummm. no.

Um, no, what? I just asked you a bunch of questions.

You are about to read and make a decision based on your reading. A doctor would probably do it better.

You are using an appeal to Authority fallacy

How on earth do you think I am making an appeal to authority fallacy? Please explain.

No... I acknowledged that bad discoing creates problems. I think you must have missed that.

Bad discoing?

Mainly because you missed the point... so let me quote from the sites i listed :
the AAP released a special report that suggests spanking may not be harmful to a child's health. In a supplement to the October 1996 Pediatrics, the cochairpersons, Drs. Stanford Friedman and Kenneth Schonberg of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, summarized thefindingsof an AAP-sponsored conference last year that was devoted to reviewingthe researchon spanking. "Given a relatively 'healthy' family life in a supportive environment, spanking in and of itself is not detrimental to a child or predictive of later problems," they report.

IN 1996. This is the fourth time I've pointed out that this is outdated by almost thirty years.

Here is their statement from twenty years later, in 2016:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) strengthens its call to ban corporal punishment within an updated policy statement, "Effective Discipline to Raise Healthy Children," which will be presented during the group's 2018 National Conference & Exhibition in Orlando.

The policy statement, to be published in the December 2018 issue of Pediatrics (Monday, Nov. 5 online) also addresses the harm associated with verbal punishment, such as shaming or humiliation. The AAP supports educating parents on more effective discipline strategies that teach appropriate behavior and protect the child and others from harm.

"The good news is, fewer parents support the use of spanking than they did in the past," said Robert D. Sege, MD, PhD, and a past member of AAP Committee on Child Abuse and Neglect, an author of the policy statement. "Yet corporal punishment remains legal in many states, despite evidence that it harms kids - not only physically and mentally, but in how they perform at school and how they interact with other children." "

AAP Says Spanking Harms Children

Here is their article on Effective Discipline to Raise Healthy Children, and you can check out their section on corporal punishment:
Effective Discipline to Raise Healthy Children

and again:

Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more appropriate and effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking.

What I also find is that whereas I will admit that there are abused to it (I am balanced) - you hold the extreme and no matter what evidence is contrary-wise, you just won't accept it.

You haven't provided any good evidence to the contrary. In fact, as I keep pointing out, you are the one ignoring the vast bulk of evidence against spanking and corporal punishment which shows that it's harmful, while throwing down with the single outlier study that you can find saying it's kinda sorta not so bad maybe if they're just toddlers. You have yet to address this point.

So my experience is more of an evidence than anecdotal. Unless you also hold to a variety of positions such as "That you were healed of scurvy because you ate limes is anecdotal and not evidence"

No, it isn't. You are biased when it comes to your own parenting skills. Everyone is. Hence the need for scientific studies.

 

[Kenny]

Um, no, what? I just asked you a bunch of questions.

Read it carefully.

How on earth do you think I am making an appeal to authority fallacy? Please explain.

Because you are stating that somehow a doctor cannot direct what the "authority" is saying and present a case where he shows where it is wrong. You are appealing to authority just because "they said so".

Bad discoing?

Sorry, auto correct. Disciplining. LOL Don't know how that got there.

IN 1996. This is the fourth time I've pointed out that this is outdated by almost thirty years.

For the fiftieth time (exaggerating of course ) - it isn't "outdated" anymore than gravity is "outdated" for the reason that the good doctor explained (if you really read it ) - I excerpted some of it.

You haven't provided any good evidence to the contrary. In fact, as I keep pointing out, you are the one ignoring the vast bulk of evidence against spanking and corporal punishment which shows that it's harmful, while throwing down with the single outlier study that you can find saying it's kinda sorta not so bad maybe if they're just toddlers. You have yet to address this point.

That's because you didn't read it and threw out what I quoted. I can see when no matter what I quote it will be irrelevant for you. (Which is fine - you can rear your children the way you want to).

No, it isn't. You are biased when it comes to your own parenting skills. Everyone is. Hence the need for scientific studies.

You are contradicting yourself. If my parenting skills produce a well balanced crop but then you criticize the method, who is in the bias arena?

Thus, when scientific studies " Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more appropriate and effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking."

I call that a faulty "scientific study" no matte who peer-reviewed it.