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Cosmic Indifference: What do you do after you realise the Universe doesn't care?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have noticed that the notion "materialists" necessarily have "an issue with pointlessness and depression" is a cliche of people who often enough believe themselves too insightful to be materialists. Yet, I think if the accuracy and strength of their insightfulness can be tested by the fact they actually believe old cliches about materialists, then it's a good thing they keep their day job, rather than attempt to become professional seers.
Reminds me of my sister. She is of those who believe such a thing is just really super depressing. But I asked her how? Isn't the depressing thing when people endure the slings and arrows of time and do nothing about it to improve the life that they do know they have rather than just taking it all and enduring life because they hope for a better life after this one? She hasn't answered me yet.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The lack of an abrahamic god, as creator of the universe creates problems as god is both the source of creation, but also consciousness and morality. Part of the legacy of Christianity is that it continues to have an effect on Liberalism even thought it isn't widely recognised to have religious roots such as in the shared concept of natural law. So I would actually be intrested to hear a pagan perspective on humans place in the universe as I do seem to be becoming "pagan" in rejecting many aspects of christanitys cultural influence but from a marxist-atheist direction. it's admittedly not an angle I have thought about much.

My perspectives emerged more from studying the sciences, biology and ecology in particular, rather than via Paganism. That said, Paganism tends to follow the line of the biological and ecological worldview, which understands that humans are part of a community of biological organisms and the abiotic components of an environment. Interconnectedness and interrelatedness is emphasized in ecology and many contemporary Paganisms alike, the extent to which depends on the flavor of Paganism. There's more lateral and web thinking than hierarchical thinking... and hierarchical thinking is more characteristic of Western culture.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If there is no god, man has no special place or significance in creation.
This isn't necessarily true. A number of physicists and cosmologists seeking to solve the so-called "fine-tuning" problem have proposed various forms of the anthropic principle. Put simply, instead of seeking the fundamental principles whence all physical systems can be understood, they take as the most fundamental principle the fact that we exist. Thus this "anthropic principle" replaces a Creator/God with...us. The universe is so incredibly special because if it weren't, we wouldn't exist. That we exist means the universe MUST be incredibly special.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This isn't necessarily true. A number of physicists and cosmologists seeking to solve the so-called "fine-tuning" problem have proposed various forms of the anthropic principle. Put simply, instead of seeking the fundamental principles whence all physical systems can be understood, they take as the most fundamental principle the fact that we exist. Thus this "anthropic principle" replaces a Creator/God with...us. The universe is so incredibly special because if it weren't, we wouldn't exist. That we exist means the universe MUST be incredibly special.
I'm not following. Would you have some alternate way of describing it that you could share?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The idea that the universe is somehow noteworthy because it happened to have room for humanity.

Well, I’m probably not the best person to explain this as I’m not a proponent (I’m not saying it is wrong, just that I’m not sure if it is and am very uneasy with it to say the least). There are a few related ideas here. First, there is the way in which physics (and most sciences) have progressed in general. We delve deeper and deeper into the nature of reality, probing its structure, and determining how more and more basic elements are governed by simpler laws until we quite literally can’t go any deeper. This was reductionism. It worked really well for a while, but then we found that at the lowest levels of reality things don’t get simpler or more basic. Our best theories require us to throw in parameters derived by observation (not theory).

Enter the anthropic principle. It turns out that if these parameters were slightly altered (for some, even by unbelievably small amounts) we, life in general, and/or the universe couldn’t exist. Even the highly theoretical, mathematically derived attempts at a unified explanation of everything (like string theories) are amazingly complicated (adding to, rather than simplifying, the current model of particle physics). Because we haven’t had any success figuring out how we might conceivably be able to explain the parameters via theory, many physicists have argued that we would be better served to take the fact of our existence as the ultimate foundations from which we should make predictions. In other words, while the parameters have to be thrown in ad hoc if we stick to the reductionist, first principles approach, they are perfectly explained as well as predictable (in at least one case, actually predicted) by noting that if they differed, we wouldn’t be around to observe them.

From another perspective, we can look at the usual arguments offered for a Copernican view of the universe (there’s nothing special about Earth or us). For example, the universe has existed for billions of years and is enormously vast. Only it turns out that the universe HAD to be billions of years old for life to be able to exist at all, and it had to be enormously vast (these properties also allow a small window in which we could make the discoveries in physics we have, such as the recent observation of gravitational waves or the CMB that provided such clear empirical support for the big bang theory). We needed a long, long time for the universe to spread out, cool off, produce the basic elements required for life, solar systems with the right distributions, etc. In a very real sense, we are in an extremely special space in the universe on an extraordinarily unique planet at the perfect cosmic time.

There’s another side to the fine-tuning problem other than that many of the finely-tuned parameters are not predicted or explained by theory but derived from observation: why does it seem like so many slight changes would make complex life impossible? There is no reason that the universe couldn’t have been different than it is (we can imagine a sort of “fitness landscape” for the universe itself in which various possible universes had e.g., different fundamental forces, greater or fewer fundamental constants, etc.). Not only do so many slight changes to any single parameter in this space of possible universes result in a universe in which we couldn’t exist, for a universe to allow complex life you need all the parameters working together (like a system of equations). We would like, in true Copernican form, to suppose that there is nothing particularly special about the fundamental forces or fundamental constants or the properties of particles and so on, in that we would like to suppose that a slight change or even many changes to these wouldn’t change much. Life, for example, may not have arisen on Earth if e.g., lambda or omega were changed (or if the surface tension of water differed and other anthropic “tunings” at the chemical/molecular level), but surely there are loads of other possible universes different than our own in which we would nonetheless find intelligent life, right? It seems the answer is no. The probability of finding ourselves in the particular universe we do is astronomically small if we were to consider just the number of possible ones (not unexpected, as the probability of picking one thing out of an infinite number is almost always going to be small or zero), but more importantly it’s the only one that allows complex life. The fine-tuning problem, in this sense, is that the universe shouldn’t be “tuned” without a tuner. It’s almost as if someone set things up very, very carefully so that we could be here. There are then three general classes of approach: 1) God did it 2) There’s something wrong with the evidence or the interpretation of it 3) Take the fact that we are here as fundamental. This last one is the anthropic choice: the universe has the properties it does because we are here, and if it didn’t have the properties it does we wouldn’t be. We’re the “first principle” from which we should reason.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Well, I’m probably not the best person to explain this as I’m not a proponent (I’m not saying it is wrong, just that I’m not sure if it is and am very uneasy with it to say the least). There are a few related ideas here. First, there is the way in which physics (and most sciences) have progressed in general. We delve deeper and deeper into the nature of reality, probing its structure, and determining how more and more basic elements are governed by simpler laws until we quite literally can’t go any deeper. This was reductionism. It worked really well for a while, but then we found that at the lowest levels of reality things don’t get simpler or more basic. Our best theories require us to throw in parameters derived by observation (not theory).

Enter the anthropic principle. It turns out that if these parameters were slightly altered (for some, even by unbelievably small amounts) we, life in general, and/or the universe couldn’t exist. Even the highly theoretical, mathematically derived attempts at a unified explanation of everything (like string theories) are amazingly complicated (adding to, rather than simplifying, the current model of particle physics). Because we haven’t had any success figuring out how we might conceivably be able to explain the parameters via theory, many physicists have argued that we would be better served to take the fact of our existence as the ultimate foundations from which we should make predictions. In other words, while the parameters have to be thrown in ad hoc if we stick to the reductionist, first principles approach, they are perfectly explained as well as predictable (in at least one case, actually predicted) by noting that if they differed, we wouldn’t be around to observe them.

From another perspective, we can look at the usual arguments offered for a Copernican view of the universe (there’s nothing special about Earth or us). For example, the universe has existed for billions of years and is enormously vast. Only it turns out that the universe HAD to be billions of years old for life to be able to exist at all, and it had to be enormously vast (these properties also allow a small window in which we could make the discoveries in physics we have, such as the recent observation of gravitational waves or the CMB that provided such clear empirical support for the big bang theory). We needed a long, long time for the universe to spread out, cool off, produce the basic elements required for life, solar systems with the right distributions, etc. In a very real sense, we are in an extremely special space in the universe on an extraordinarily unique planet at the perfect cosmic time.

There’s another side to the fine-tuning problem other than that many of the finely-tuned parameters are not predicted or explained by theory but derived from observation: why does it seem like so many slight changes would make complex life impossible? There is no reason that the universe couldn’t have been different than it is (we can imagine a sort of “fitness landscape” for the universe itself in which various possible universes had e.g., different fundamental forces, greater or fewer fundamental constants, etc.). Not only do so many slight changes to any single parameter in this space of possible universes result in a universe in which we couldn’t exist, for a universe to allow complex life you need all the parameters working together (like a system of equations). We would like, in true Copernican form, to suppose that there is nothing particularly special about the fundamental forces or fundamental constants or the properties of particles and so on, in that we would like to suppose that a slight change or even many changes to these wouldn’t change much. Life, for example, may not have arisen on Earth if e.g., lambda or omega were changed (or if the surface tension of water differed and other anthropic “tunings” at the chemical/molecular level), but surely there are loads of other possible universes different than our own in which we would nonetheless find intelligent life, right? It seems the answer is no. The probability of finding ourselves in the particular universe we do is astronomically small if we were to consider just the number of possible ones (not unexpected, as the probability of picking one thing out of an infinite number is almost always going to be small or zero), but more importantly it’s the only one that allows complex life. The fine-tuning problem, in this sense, is that the universe shouldn’t be “tuned” without a tuner. It’s almost as if someone set things up very, very carefully so that we could be here. There are then three general classes of approach: 1) God did it 2) There’s something wrong with the evidence or the interpretation of it 3) Take the fact that we are here as fundamental. This last one is the anthropic choice: the universe has the properties it does because we are here, and if it didn’t have the properties it does we wouldn’t be. We’re the “first principle” from which we should reason.

I think that is all very well put.

On the last choice- the same rationale can be applied to a monkey at a typewriter with War and Peace neatly typed. He accidentally typed what he did, because we can read it, and if he didn't, we wouldn't be here talking about it! No need to suspect intelligent agency..

This reverse perspective does nothing to change the excruciatingly infinitesimal odds of this occurring randomly, versus it occurring through creative intelligence. And since the novel War and Peace is only one tiny fragment of the coherent information included in the universe/ ultimately extracted from the singularity, the analogy would be selling creation very short!
 

Inner Prop

Seeker of Truth
First to answer the original question, it disturbed me and launched me on probably the most involved extensional quest I ever had. I'm still questing. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that there is no Purpose or individual impact after physical death (often referred to an afterlife). Over 30 years ago I told a friend, "I don't NEED a god, I WANT a god." It was 20 years after that any previous god-model I had failed. I had always be deist in my approach to spirituality, but I had to turn it up to 11 when I was forced on my latest quest. There is no revelation, just the evidence of the universe. What is there is there and any purpose can only be found there.

I like the second part of what Baladas said:
Purpose is something that we create...and who say that the Universe doesn't care?
We are not external to the Universe. If we care, then part of it does.
It's all a matter of perspective.

I also find this interesting, especially in conjunction with the above:
This isn't necessarily true. A number of physicists and cosmologists seeking to solve the so-called "fine-tuning" problem have proposed various forms of the anthropic principle. Put simply, instead of seeking the fundamental principles whence all physical systems can be understood, they take as the most fundamental principle the fact that we exist. Thus this "anthropic principle" replaces a Creator/God with...us. The universe is so incredibly special because if it weren't, we wouldn't exist. That we exist means the universe MUST be incredibly special.

If we are the part of the universe that cares, and we are in the universe because this is the only arrangement of the universe in which we could have developed (intelligent life I mean, not Homo sapiens), then maybe it would be for the best if we spread out all over the universe. We as individuals may be short-lived, and that may be for the best (as it may be just what makes life sweet), but that doesn't mean that we as intelligent life and civilization (in the meta sense) need any limit.

I'm exploring several god-models and universe models to see what best fits the evidence and makes me most comfortable. One is the idea that the universe didn't have a creator god, nor any purpose in the beginning, but it is developing one. Another is that the universe may not have a purpose, but humanity probably does and our impact on humanity will outlive us. How we impact our society in both depth and breadth is our "afterlife." That is a fact, not a belief, but thinking of it this way does make me feel more comfortable.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
The universe cares enough to allow you to think that it might not care.
Thereby teaching you patience and independence of the neediness
that requires you to demand that it care on your terms.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Hi all the hermit is back!

It seems to me that the OT's premise depends more than not on the presumption that an deity-like *GID exists. (GID is an acronym meaning 'God (the/or) Intelligent Designer'. I coined it some time ago to reference a creator without assigning a specific religion to it). Setting GID aside for a moment, would plain old self aware humans be special if we created the universe? Some philosophers of science, cosmologists (and me!) have suggested that our sentience may interact/change the universes evolution. Maybe sentience may be required for the universe to exist!. An example of how self aware beings may change the universe is by time manipulation. Forcing time dilation could allow us to alter the natural timeline of the universe, even if by the tiniest amount. And those tiny perturbations and deviations of the natural timeline may via chaos prompt fantastically complex and chaotic behavior in other regions of our universe that we could never have dreamed of. To think a speck of sentient biologic material on a little bigger speck of a pale blue dot of a planet might one day profoundly effect the universes evolution is amazing! Long live the butterfly effect! The above example(s) is/are(?) only one of many reasons humans are special!

Lastly, another argument even if it’s a bit of a stretch. If earth has an exclusive on sentience I can also say earth really is the center of the universe! We know the universe is expanding. There is no center or point of that expansion right? I would (weakly) argue that we humans and earth is the center of the universe due to our sentience. It’s so because only we know that the universe is expanding away in all directions from we humans.

BUTTERFLY EFFECT (from Wiki) I assume everyone here knows what the butterfly effect is but will post this anyway ;

In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which a small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state. The name, coined by Edward Lorenz for the effect which had been known long before, is derived from the metaphorical example of the details of a hurricane (exact time of formation, exact path taken) being influenced by minor perturbations such as the flapping of the wings of a distant butterfly several weeks earlier.




God bless this forum, and peace be with humankind ~
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I think anyone here- regardless of their beliefs- may understand what I mean if you think about Outer-space. You can look up in the sky and the "universe" is out there, billions of light years in any direction. And here we are on this one tiny piece of rock hurtling round a giant ball of molten gas, and as tiny particles of organic matter with an infinitesimally small lifespan by comparison, we try to comprehend our significance amidst it all. why is the universe so peaceful when mankind is so violent? Is that a consequence of our egotism or do natures conflicts simply work on different timescales?
It is an exercise of ego to think that we are somehow special in the universe, but it's equally an exercise of ego to think us somehow unspecial. Either way, we have made it about us.

To remove us from the picture is to see the uncaring universe, but on the other hand, caring exists. We exist.
 
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