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Could Consciousness Be the Universe's Self Awareness?

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
What are your thoughts?

I'm not claiming anything about what consciousness is or where it comes from, it's not part of the topic. I am talking about the actual abstract 'consciousness'. The fact that we are part of the universe, and have consciousness around it, doesn't that mean consciousness is the universe observing itself, which is self awareness?

And if so, doesn't that necessarily mean that the universe is conscious?
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
Is a rock conscious?

Hmmm. Consciousness is a real thing. Yes, there is a sense in which me being conscious is literally the universe being conscious. But in that exact same sense, a rock being unconscious, is literally the universe being unconscious. So it seems to me, if we wish to talk about the essence or metaphysics of the universe, we'd have to acknowledge that the universe is beyond the duality between consciousness and unconsciousness, but rather fully encompasses both concepts.

Your question reminds me a lot of a question I think about from time to time: whether or not Ultimate Reality is personal or impersonal. On one hand, the universe seems extremely indifferent to a lot of suffering that occurs, and in this sense can be thought of as "impersonal." But on the other hand, in the face of a Mother's love, a lover's kiss, or a friendly hug - we see Reality hitting you right in the face as being personal and caring. Again, what this seems to suggest to me is that Ultimate Reality is neither strictly personal nor strictly impersonal, rather it is beyond this duality and fully encompasses both concepts.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Is a rock conscious?

Hmmm. Consciousness is a real thing. Yes, there is a sense in which me being conscious is literally the universe being conscious. But in that exact same sense, a rock being unconscious, is literally the universe being unconscious. So it seems to me, if we wish to talk about the essence or metaphysics of the universe, we'd have to acknowledge that the universe is beyond the duality between consciousness and unconsciousness, but rather fully encompasses both concepts.

But, if the universe is One body, then isn't it irrelevant that there are parts that are conscious? A brain may make consciousness to animate a human body which is composed on unconscious things.

There is a consciousness that projects from the universe's body, and thus the body itself is conscious, regardless of other objects that aren't conscious composing it.

Because non-conscious things do not exactly project non-consciousness, do they?

Your question reminds me a lot of a question I think about from time to time: whether or not Ultimate Reality is personal or impersonal. On one hand, the universe seems extremely indifferent to a lot of suffering that occurs, and in this sense can be thought of as "impersonal." But on the other hand, in the face of a Mother's love, a lover's kiss, or a friendly hug - we see Reality hitting you right in the face as being personal and caring. Again, what this seems to suggest to me is that Ultimate Reality is neither strictly personal nor strictly impersonal, rather it is beyond this duality and fully encompasses both concepts.

Are you willing to consider that a Mother's love and a nuclear bomb are not much different at all? My belief is that the universe acts, and conscious beings within it judges those actions. I believe the universe's relationship is personal, in the sense of it having a personal relationship with itself (which includes us), if that makes sense.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Please expand.

It isn't what we observe, so we are faced with the possibility that it isn't true. We can sort of get around this using arguments that more relate to self awareness that...alas doesn't really make sense.
It's sort of like saying, a painting wanted to be painted so it created the painter. I n some wild reality, this is possible, but we have to limit ourselves imo to what we know, (or best guess).
That's all, it's a good theory actually.
 
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Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I think consciousness is a phenomena which is the result of increasing complexity and time. So I agree it is representative mechanism that is an extension of self awareness of the individual in the environment. I also believe there is a case for non organic intelligence developing. It then begs the question as technology (read computers) become massively more powerful and then neurally connect them via a network (read the internet), could this solid state system gain sentience?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
It isn't what we observe, so we are faced with the possibility that it isn't true. We can sort of get around this using arguments that more relate to self awareness that...alas doesn't really make sense.
It's sort of like saying, a painting wanted to be painted so it created the painter. I n some wild reality, this is possible, but we have to limit ourselves imo to what we know, (or best guess).
That's all, it's a good theory actually.

I am not sure how it relates to that.
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
The Sum of Awe said:
But, if the universe is One body, then isn't it irrelevant that there are parts that are conscious? A brain may make consciousness to animate a human body which is composed on unconscious things.

There is a consciousness that projects from the universe's body, and thus the body itself is conscious, regardless of other objects that aren't conscious composing it.

Because non-conscious things do not exactly project non-consciousness, do they?

Your thinking here depends on the assumption that the universe can properly be thought of as "One body", as some sort of holistic whole. Why should I believe the universe is "One body?"

I remember Kant talked about the faliciousness of the idea of thinking of the universe as a holistic body. When I get home I'll try finding my Kant notes and figure out exactly what he says on this subject.

The Sum of Awe said:
Are you willing to consider that a Mother's love and a nuclear bomb are not much different at all? My belief is that the universe acts, and conscious beings within it judges those actions. I believe the universe's relationship is personal, in the sense of it having a personal relationship with itself (which includes us), if that makes sense.

How is a Mother's love and a nuclear bomb supposed to be similar? lol
What you're saying is really interesting here.. but again it depends on the assumption that the universe is indeed some sort of holistic body, and I vaguely remember Kant explaining why this is problematic.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I don't think that we can connect a quasi-transcendent barely defined concept of 'the universe' with the concept or reality of 'consciousness.' For one thing, assuming that there is a connection is no different between arguing that any X is conscious because humans are conscious - a point many posters have picked up on. The reason for this is that there are no inherent constraints in the question to limit X to 'the universe.'

Several problems come into play:
1) The term 'universe' is undefined (no restriction, so the 'universe' may as well be God, tacos, or potato poop)

2) We don't even know if there is a universe or a multiverse or if the current universe is the result of an infinite number of big bangs, expanding to its boundaries and imploding back on itself over and over again

3) It's likely that this question assumes an irrational delusion of grandeur --- that human consciousness is cosmically special and defines the universe in an incredible way. However, the vast knowable, awesome expanse of the universe testifies to the insignificance of humanity - we are only a fleeting thought in the sea of stars. Heck, we are a speck of nothingness even in the sea of other humans.
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
3) It's likely that this question assumes an irrational delusion of grandeur --- that human consciousness is cosmically special and defines the universe in an incredible way. However, the vast knowable, awesome expanse of the universe testifies to the insignificance of humanity - we are only a fleeting thought in the sea of stars. Heck, we are a speck of nothingness even in the sea of other humans.

Why is "size" an appropriate measure of "significance?" You say the sheer size of the universe makes human beings insignificant... GK Chesterton has a great response to this type of thinking:

"Why should a man surrender his dignity to the size of the solar system anymore than to the size of a whale? If mere size proves the image of God, than a whale may be the image of God.....You choose to have an emotion about the largeness of the cosmos.. why not about its smallness? Anything however large, can be conceived of as small"
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What are your thoughts?

I'm not claiming anything about what consciousness is or where it comes from, it's not part of the topic. I am talking about the actual abstract 'consciousness'. The fact that we are part of the universe, and have consciousness around it, doesn't that mean consciousness is the universe observing itself, which is self awareness?

And if so, doesn't that necessarily mean that the universe is conscious?
Yup. To understand that you are not distinct from the universe is also to understand that there is nothing that is "yours," i.e. that belongs to something that is distinct from the universe.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Is a rock conscious?

Hmmm. Consciousness is a real thing. Yes, there is a sense in which me being conscious is literally the universe being conscious. But in that exact same sense, a rock being unconscious, is literally the universe being unconscious. So it seems to me, if we wish to talk about the essence or metaphysics of the universe, we'd have to acknowledge that the universe is beyond the duality between consciousness and unconsciousness, but rather fully encompasses both concepts.

Your question reminds me a lot of a question I think about from time to time: whether or not Ultimate Reality is personal or impersonal. On one hand, the universe seems extremely indifferent to a lot of suffering that occurs, and in this sense can be thought of as "impersonal." But on the other hand, in the face of a Mother's love, a lover's kiss, or a friendly hug - we see Reality hitting you right in the face as being personal and caring. Again, what this seems to suggest to me is that Ultimate Reality is neither strictly personal nor strictly impersonal, rather it is beyond this duality and fully encompasses both concepts.
The rock does not exist apart from your awareness of it.

To claim it does, and that you don't have to know it, as some do, is to claim something you don't know.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
The rock does not exist apart from your awareness of it.

To claim it does, and that you don't have to know it, as some do, is to claim something you don't know.
I've read a lot of your posts, and about 9 10ths of them contain sentences that appear simple but tie me in knots.

Does anything exist outside of someone's awareness?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Why is "size" an appropriate measure of "significance?" You say the sheer size of the universe makes human beings insignificant... GK Chesterton has a great response to this type of thinking:

"Why should a man surrender his dignity to the size of the solar system anymore than to the size of a whale? If mere size proves the image of God, than a whale may be the image of God.....You choose to have an emotion about the largeness of the cosmos.. why not about its smallness? Anything however large, can be conceived of as small"

I agree with Chesterton's argument completely. I don't think that man should surrender his dignity because of the size of the universe. I think that we should appreciate our dignity to the highest degree within comparable standards - other human beings. And we should appreciate our insignificance in respect to that which is almost immeasurably incomparable.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Your thinking here depends on the assumption that the universe can properly be thought of as "One body", as some sort of holistic whole. Why should I believe the universe is "One body?"

I remember Kant talked about the faliciousness of the idea of thinking of the universe as a holistic body. When I get home I'll try finding my Kant notes and figure out exactly what he says on this subject.

I have many reasons why the universe should be considered one body. But I didn't expect to find disagreement on that, so in all probability there may be rebuttals that I don't expect either.

For one thing, the universe is literally categorized as one. "The Universe" includes everything in spacetime and lumps it all into one category.

1) If you agree that everything consists of atoms, then what more is the universe except for atoms? Same can apply for anything, including energy. If there is a similar substance that everything composes of, doesn't that insist there is a single structure/object?

2) If you agree that the universe starts off as a singularity, and that the big bang isn't the creation of spacetime but rather the expansion of it, then the universe still is a singularity, except larger. In fact, if you go as far as to say that every bit of matter moving in the expanding spacetime, the universe is still the same exact singularity that it always has been, but only rearranging and spreading out.

3) If the entire universe, and thus everything that exists within it, are from the same source, that must mean it is all the same entity.

4) If you agree that the universe consists of energy and that all matter within it is condensed energy, and that all things are compounded by matter and matter alone then this energy must be shared with all of the universe.

5) If you agree that everything in existence is interdependent and that cause and effect applies to all of the universe, meaning that the entire universe responds to itself, that indicates that we are all part of the same flow and thus there is the One Flow that pertains to the Universe. We experience bits and pieces of this flow, which seem to be multiple flows, but the fact that this flow moves through all of the universe and causes "other" flows, proves that there is only one Flow, and from our perspective one flow consisting of many. From the entirety's perspective one flow bouncing off of the edges of the universe (non-literal). One flow that is constantly flowing and effecting itself in the process. There is only one Way that nature acts in, and we all are apart of its actions.

6) Wouldn't the fact that all of existence abides the same laws of physics mean that we are all One Thing, considering we're all bound to the same thing in the same way? That's one of my lesser arguments, because I can see how one might think not.

7) Similar to the One Flow, but this has less to do with the way the universe moves and more to do with how the universe shares itself. We are constantly losing particles and gaining particles. When we touch something this happens, when wind blows this happens, when we are hot and enter a cool room this happens, when we breath this happens. We all consist of elements FROM nature, that are constantly returning to nature. Everything that we compose of is IN the flow still, every single element that builds compounds we call objects. There isn't a separation, there aren't any 'objects', it's all illusion, there are only elements in constant motion, and there are patterns that we as conscious beings find, but there patterns are no more legit than finding shapes in the clouds.

I have many more ideas, but those are some off of the top of my head.


How is a Mother's love and a nuclear bomb supposed to be similar? lol
What you're saying is really interesting here.. but again it depends on the assumption that the universe is indeed some sort of holistic body, and I vaguely remember Kant explaining why this is problematic.

It's not really similar in an obvious scale. They are two entirely different things. I was speaking more on the ethical level. You were speaking of a mother's love as revealing that the Ultimate Reality is personal, but the wickedness around us as revealing it to be impersonal. It seems that you are suggesting that a mother's love is more objectively preferred than wickedness (and I enlisted a nuclear bomb as an example of wickedness). But that is illusion that comes with perception. With consciousness comes comparison between two different experiences, and preference is included. But this preference is illusion, there is no reason why a mother's love truly should be more preferred than a nuclear missile, at least to the eye of nature (or Ultimate Reality).
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think that we can connect a quasi-transcendent barely defined concept of 'the universe' with the concept or reality of 'consciousness.' For one thing, assuming that there is a connection is no different between arguing that any X is conscious because humans are conscious - a point many posters have picked up on. The reason for this is that there are no inherent constraints in the question to limit X to 'the universe.'

Several problems come into play:
1) The term 'universe' is undefined (no restriction, so the 'universe' may as well be God, tacos, or potato poop)

I agree and I am doing my best not to add unnecessary characteristics to the universe in this example other than the sum of all existence, because that is what I am defining the universe as.

2) We don't even know if there is a universe or a multiverse or if the current universe is the result of an infinite number of big bangs, expanding to its boundaries and imploding back on itself over and over again

I once again agree.

3) It's likely that this question assumes an irrational delusion of grandeur --- that human consciousness is cosmically special and defines the universe in an incredible way. However, the vast knowable, awesome expanse of the universe testifies to the insignificance of humanity - we are only a fleeting thought in the sea of stars. Heck, we are a speck of nothingness even in the sea of other humans.

I'm not limiting consciousness to the human consciousness, or even earthly consciousness. I am speaking of general consciousness around the universe. We don't know where or even if there is consciousness elsewhere in the universe, I believe it's highly unlikely that there isn't, but it's irrelevant. Consciousness in all existence is what I'm speaking of.

And I agree that humans, earth, the solar system, and perhaps even our galaxy is extremely insignificant. Less than a spec. Perhaps an atom to the sun. One human dies and the galaxy over doesn't notice.

This is not to say that consciousness itself is odd and perhaps significant, regardless of what it comes from. A species living on a rock, or a rock living on a species, it matters not. Consciousness, as far as we know, is rare.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I can't reply to other posts yet, need to work. I will check in later!
 

punkdbass

I will be what I will be
The rock does not exist apart from your awareness of it.

To claim it does, and that you don't have to know it, as some do, is to claim something you don't know.

Hmm is there a distinction between what you are trying to say here and Berkeley's philosophy? For Berkeley, nothing exists outside of your mind. For to assert that something does exist outside of or independent of your mind is ironically to have an idea of what that something is, and thus you would contradict yourself, for the 'thing' you posited is not really independent of your mind since you have an idea of it.

I remember going over the various faults with Berkeley's philosophy, but unfortunately I don't remember any of them off the top of my head. Anyhow, is what you're proposing essentially the same as Berkeley's philosophy? I suppose 1 key difference could be that you are saying there is essentially no difference between man and the universe, whereas I don't think that realization plays a major role in Berkeley's philosophy.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I've read a lot of your posts, and about 9 10ths of them contain sentences that appear simple but tie me in knots.

Does anything exist outside of someone's awareness?
Depends on what it means to you, "to exist."

Can you say that something you know nothing about exists? Of course not; until you know it exists, and then you can say, "Oh, well, it was always here, just as it is." The human beast makes up stories, like that, all the time.
 
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