It's debatable if existence is property. Rather, properties exist.Its existing which is every objects default property. It is being some specific object which I s not default and requires an observer. Without an observer everything is just being.
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It's debatable if existence is property. Rather, properties exist.Its existing which is every objects default property. It is being some specific object which I s not default and requires an observer. Without an observer everything is just being.
I repeat.....twistheist
~'mud
So if I wanted to be both atheist and theist what would I call myself? Ortheist? Northeist?
Do you know of any examples of a thing that does exist and does not exist at the same time? If you're speaking about something like time travel I would say that falls into the category of science fiction. Now if we were to put God into that category I would just have one question. (And maybe this is off topic, sorry!) What is the origin of the people group called the Jews? If God only exists in our minds then he wouldn't be much of a God in the first place, and the Jewish people are evidence that an actual spirit being helped them. If God only exists in the mind then what does this mean about our evolution? Is it uncaused?And so we might take a few steps back from the routine of debating the "exist or not?" question, and explore whether a God could both exist, and not exist, at the same time.
I wasn't talking about God, but about existence.
That's debatable.
It has to do with my comments.
Me too. Logic. The invention of a single half insane species on one little planet in one of billions of galaxies.
Is logic useful for very many things? Yes, proven beyond doubt. Are the rules of logic binding everywhere in all of reality? Not proven at all. Logic says a thing can not both exist and not exist and yet arguably space, the vast majority of reality, does just that.
Rejection is based on something, a reference to an authority of some kind. If a fundamentalist Christian rejects gay marriage, they are doing so by referencing their chosen authority, probably the Bible. By trying to sell their point of view they are making a claim that their chosen authority is qualified for the subject at hand. If that claim can not be proven, they are operating from faith.
If this person has a very deep and sincere yet unexamined faith in their chosen authority, they may not realize they are making a claim, as they may take the qualifications of their chosen authority to be an obvious given. This is often the case with many atheists, they may believe without questioning that the rules of human reason are binding everywhere, and thus they sincerely don't realize that they are making a counter claim when they reject religious beliefs, or at least when they try to sell their rejection.
Which brings us back to this. Even though this inquiry has been searching for The Answer for thousands of years, we are still in a position where all claimed answers from every side can be successfully challenged. If one should listen to that huge pile of evidence, the theist vs. atheist debate begins to fall away, as it starts to become clear that debate serves no useful purpose beyond entertainment.
Nor any proof that the rules of human reason are binding everywhere, the scope of the god proposal. And without such proof, a lack of evidence means little. If the rules of poker can not be shown to be binding in all of reality, then the fact that some God idea violates a poker rule is of little use to us.
I can see you are intent on participating in a theist vs. atheist debate. As you can see by now, I'm neither a theist or an atheist, and see little evidence that debate is going anywhere. I'm not arguing against the theist or atheist position so much as I am arguing against the contest between them. In other words, I am a party pooper. But given all my too many words, perhaps I am more accurately labeled a Fundamentalist Party Pooper.
If we discard a search for The Answer, we no longer need evidence. However we may need evidence that discarding such a search is the best course of action.
This is of course a leading argument for God. Sorry, cheap shot, my bad.
Yes, imho, this is pretty much the situation for both committed theists and atheists. There is a strong need for some authority which can be trusted, something which can be relied on, a rule book to follow, an answer. And thus, participants may choose to ignore the fact that the qualifications of their chosen authority have not been proven.
Assuming that the beliefs they derive from their chosen authority aren't hurting anybody else, and are enhancing their own lives, such a faith based operation can be considered reasonable, if not meeting the highest most ideal standards of investigation procedure. Life is short, life can be hard, everybody gets through however they can.
It appears my primary need is to keep the keyboard keys a clacking, to trumpet the glorious sound of my own little voice throughout the nerdosphere, for I am Typist.
I should try to type more clearly, for we are talking past each other to a degree. You wish to participate in a theist/atheist debate it seems, while my goal is to discard what I see to be a proven failed process in order to continue the age old inquiry by hopefully more promising methods. But this is just a goal, not a demand, and Rome wasn't built in a day as they say.
Well, we're on page five already, and there hasn't been a big shootout among participants yet. Good for us, free beers for everybody!
Do you know of any examples of a thing that does exist and does not exist at the same time?
Logic must be binding as logic reflect reality.
Again all your are doing is providing a double-standard to hide behind, sorry.
What I am suggesting is that the attempts to ignore logic and reason is just a double-standard due to the inability of the theist to provide logical proof or evidence of their answer.
No I am merely proposing your need to discuss possible answers and methods of discovering these answers could be an overriding facet of yourself. Food for thought so to speak
Sorry for the delayed replies. I am enjoying my 3 weeks off of teaching until the summer semester starts.
Do not consider my comments about theism vs atheism but as one opposed to the idea that logic is flawed.
By doing so I am pointing out how you have not provided any new method as of yet. No new principles, axioms, laws, etc.
Okay, so we know that there is a void outside of our atmosphere, so the void exists. There are also other planetary structures that exist within the void, so at the same time that the empty spaces of space are void we know that the cosmos is full of all kinds of beauty. So in a way space is not completely empty. Therefore space is an entity.Um, yep, see opening post.
Yeah, in two separate equations.1 and 0
why going out of spacePhilosophical discussions on the topic of religion often revolve around a central question, does a God exist, or not?
It's perhaps interesting to observe that those on both sides of this question seem to accept the dualistic, yes/no, on/off, exist/not exist nature of this question without complaint.
If the question "does God exist?" is itself flawed, then it seems all discussion arising from that question would also be inherently flawed, rendering all arguments pro and con, for and against, to be perhaps essentially meaningless.
And so we might take a few steps back from the routine of debating the "exist or not?" question, and explore whether a God could both exist, and not exist, at the same time.
If this is possible that may mean that theists and atheists are both right, and wrong as well. Such an outcome would totally spoil the debate game of course, but those concerned primarily with advancing understanding have no reason to fear that.
And so we proceed to the question of evidence. Is there compelling evidence of anything that could both exist and not exist, at the same time?
I ask all this because it has recently occurred to me that the overwhelming vast majority of reality from the subatomic to cosmic level both exists, and doesn't exist, at the same time.
I am referring of course to space.
There certainly is space between the Earth and Moon, that space is there, or the Earth and Moon would be one thing. But that space is defined as an empty void, a nothing. It exists, and yet doesn't exist, at the same time.
If one feels that one's point of view should be grounded in observation of observable reality, we can observe the seemingly impossible to be a dominant characteristic of reality.
Weird, huh?
Yes, nothing and something existing simultaneously in a void of nothingness which is something is much more likely than my theism.Philosophical discussions on the topic of religion often revolve around a central question, does a God exist, or not?
It's perhaps interesting to observe that those on both sides of this question seem to accept the dualistic, yes/no, on/off, exist/not exist nature of this question without complaint.
If the question "does God exist?" is itself flawed, then it seems all discussion arising from that question would also be inherently flawed, rendering all arguments pro and con, for and against, to be perhaps essentially meaningless.
And so we might take a few steps back from the routine of debating the "exist or not?" question, and explore whether a God could both exist, and not exist, at the same time.
If this is possible that may mean that theists and atheists are both right, and wrong as well. Such an outcome would totally spoil the debate game of course, but those concerned primarily with advancing understanding have no reason to fear that.
And so we proceed to the question of evidence. Is there compelling evidence of anything that could both exist and not exist, at the same time?
I ask all this because it has recently occurred to me that the overwhelming vast majority of reality from the subatomic to cosmic level both exists, and doesn't exist, at the same time.
I am referring of course to space.
There certainly is space between the Earth and Moon, that space is there, or the Earth and Moon would be one thing. But that space is defined as an empty void, a nothing. It exists, and yet doesn't exist, at the same time.
If one feels that one's point of view should be grounded in observation of observable reality, we can observe the seemingly impossible to be a dominant characteristic of reality.
Weird, huh?