Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[gnostic]

Much of Islam are based on 2 different religions: Judaism and Christianity.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

The scriptures that narrated the lives of Adam to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, and to the kings, the survivors of the Exile in Babylon to the construction of the Second Temple (in the Tanakh) and the lives of Jesus and Paul.

So without Abraham and Ishmael, there would be no Muhammad.

 

[Madhuri]

I don't think so. If you believe Muhammad copied ideas from those religions, then obviously it would not exist. But if you believe, as Muslims do, that those other religions are earlier versions of Islam that became corrupt over time and that the Quran is in fact the word of God, then I guess the answer is yes.

 

[Iti oj]

well your question assumes islam is false.

 

[arthra]

Much of Islam are based on 2 different religions: Judaism and Christianity.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

The scriptures that narrated the lives of Adam to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, and to the kings, the survivors of the Exile in Babylon to the construction of the Second Temple (in the Tanakh) and the lives of Jesus and Paul.

So without Abraham and Ishmael, there would be no Muhammad.

The Quran basically recognizes the past dispensations:

Surih 4

163 Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;

164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;

165 Messengers of good cheer and of warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

(Pickthall translation)

The way I look at it is that there is one religion of God..so it's not really "different religions"..

Religions are like the branches of one Tree. One branch is high, one is low and one in the centre, yet all draw their life from the one stem. One branch bears fruit and others are not laden so abundantly. All the Prophets are lights, they only differ in degree; they shine like brilliant heavenly bodies, each have their appointed place and time of ascension. Some are like lamps, some like the moon, some like distant stars, and a few are like the sun, shining from one end of the earth to the other. all have the same Light to give, yet they are different in degree.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 62

 

[gnostic]

The idea of this thread, come from another thread - What if Jesus Had Not Been Crucified, So There Was No Easter?

But one thing for certain, there would have been no Christianity if there was no crucifixion and resurrection. The world would be very different...and there would be no Muhammad as a prophet, no Qur'an and no Islam, without Christianity.

If the crucifixion and resurrection didn't happen then the world would be quite different, and the pagan customs of Easter (Easter eggs and Easter bunny) may or may not survive to this day.

If that is the case, then what would happen if both Christianity and Judaism didn't exist?

Even though the Arabian peninsula was populated with majority of Arab people being pagans, there were also Jews living there, and Christian missionaries going in and out of the peninsula. So the teachings of Judaism and Christianity were not unknown in Mecca.

But if you remove the Tanakh and Bible and other Judaeo-Christian literature, and if you remove all the biblical figures, like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Moses, David, and Jesus, then what are you left with?

 

[beerisit]

A very thought provoking question.

 

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Well... I think Muslim point of view is that the Islam (that we have today from prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him]) did not need Christianity or Judaism/ the prophets Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them both) to exist because we believe that those prophets were sent with the religions for their people and time but the current one is for all people till Day of Resurrection. So it would have been 'delivered' anyway even if those other two prophets weren't sent.

Just minus their stories from what we have in Islam today.

But Allah has willed it this way, choosing those prophets to deliver His message to their people, doing their job, and sending them Gospel and Torah n all of that.

I don't know why you would be looking for a non-Muslim view on this when surely it would be that much of Islam wouldn't exist b/c they believe it was copied from Christians and Jews, that prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is "founder" of Islam, etc.

 

[Cordoba]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all from the same God, according to Muslims, and all prophets God sent, from Noah to Muhammad, were from the same God.

All the prophets preached the same core faith, which was always the same: Belief in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe (Monotheism)

What differed from one era to the next, and from one revelation to the next is some aspects in the Divine Law

So Islam is indeed a continuation of the same divine message, no problem there ...

 

[kai]

well if i take the view that Islam is the original religion:

If judaism and Christianity were not "corrupted" and they hadn't strayed from the original Islam, there would have been no need for the prophets revelation to correct this corruption, or remind anyone of the original Islam, so they would all have been Mulims anyway.

 

[Caladan]

Much of Islam are based on 2 different religions: Judaism and Christianity.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

Regardless of the question of Islam existing or not. I think that it should benefit every Muslim to understand the context of Qur'anic narratives, and in order to do so they need to understand their original form in the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish Talmud and Midrash. that's at least from Judaism's part. there is also the Christian context.
It's important to remember that Muhammad and other Arabs had contact with Jews, they heared the Jewish Torah readings, and language and discussions which may have been spiced in Biblical or other Jewish teachings. the Qur'an did not spring one day out of nowhere containing all these Biblical stories and other Jewish narratives and parables.

 

[9Westy9]

Much of Islam are based on 2 different religions: Judaism and Christianity.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

The scriptures that narrated the lives of Adam to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, and to the kings, the survivors of the Exile in Babylon to the construction of the Second Temple (in the Tanakh) and the lives of Jesus and Paul.

So without Abraham and Ishmael, there would be no Muhammad.

Probably not but if Allah exists then he easily could have created Islam before the other Abrahamic religions.

 

[gnostic]

Regardless of the question of Islam existing or not. I think that it should benefit every Muslim to understand the context of Qur'anic narratives, and in order to do so they need to understand their original form in the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish Talmud and Midrash. that's at least from Judaism's part. there is also the Christian context.
It's important to remember that Muhammad and other Arabs had contact with Jews, they heared the Jewish Torah readings, and language and discussions which may have been spiced in Biblical or other Jewish teachings. the Qur'an did not spring one day out of nowhere containing all these Biblical stories and other Jewish narratives and parables.

I agreed.

I wrote this in post 5:

Even though the Arabian peninsula was populated with majority of Arab people being pagans, there were also Jews living there, and Christian missionaries going in and out of the peninsula. So the teachings of Judaism and Christianity were not unknown in Mecca.

Even if Muhammad and many other couldn't read, the Christians did retell what they know to the audiences, through speeches. And large part of Jewish populace learned their religion through oral traditions, because not everyone had the written scriptures at hand. The Talmud and Midrash did come from oral tradition, ie Oral Torah.

No, I find it highly doubtful that the Arabs didn't know about Jewish or Christian religions.

 

[Caladan]

Even though the Arabian peninsula was populated with majority of Arab people being pagans, there were also Jews living there, and Christian missionaries going in and out of the peninsula. So the teachings of Judaism and Christianity were not unknown in Mecca.

In continuation to this. it is agreed that Muhammad as a trader who traveled in the region had serious conversations about religion with Jews, in addition Muhammad and other Arabs also knew the Jewish tribes living in Arabia, including in Medina and Mecca.
I also listened to scholars who said that he could have been present in the synagogues themselves listening to Jews reading from their scripture. One thing they all agree on is that Muhammad and the None Jewish Arabs understood a basic context of Jewish tradition, as they have been exposed to it on some basis. Also, Jewish sayings which are based in scriptures and other Jewish texts were used in daily communication between Jews.
In some instances we can see Biblical narratives were changed in order for them to be relevant for Muslims. For example in Islamic tradition it is Ishmael which is binded by Abraham instead of Isaac as the story appears in the Bible.

 

[gnostic]

Probably not but if Allah exists then he easily could have created Islam before the other Abrahamic religions.

Sure that one's possibility, but I find that highly unlikely. I like to see real physical evidences to support this scenario, before I can accept this.

We have enough problem determine the origins of Judaism and Christianity, as well as the origins of their respective scriptures (each individual book or each individual letter). The only evidences to support that the Qur'an and Islam existing before Muhammad's calling are nonexistence.

 

[9Westy9]

Sure that one's possibility, but I find that highly unlikely. I like to see real physical evidences to support this scenario, before I can accept this.

We have enough problem determine the origins of Judaism and Christianity, as well as the origins of their respective scriptures (each individual book or each individual letter). The only evidences to support that the Qur'an and Islam existing before Muhammad's calling are nonexistence.

I'm saying that it's possible but not probable.

 

[gnostic]

In continuation to this. it is agreed that Muhammad as a trader who traveled in the region had serious conversations about religion with Jews, in addition Muhammad and other Arabs also knew the Jewish tribes leaving in Arabia, including in Medina and Mecca.

I have had the same thought on this, and I did write this in other threads, but not here. About Muhammad being trader, and learning through the stories that he met from Jews or Christians.

For any Muslim claiming this is not so, it is deluding himself. Muhammad may be unlettered, but I don't think he was stupid or ignorant.

Before printing, most people learned from oral tradition, when writings were not available.

I also listened to scholars who said that he could have been present in the synagogues themselves listening them reading from their scripture. One thing they all agree on is that Muhammad and the None Jewish Arabs understood a basic context of Jewish tradition. also, Jewish sayings which are based in scriptures and other Jewish texts were used in daily communication between Jews.

Yes, that is also possible. Public reading, Where a person (or two) can read in the synagogues or churches in front of audience.

 

[Caladan]

Sure that one's possibility, but I find that highly unlikely. I like to see real physical evidences to support this scenario, before I can accept this.

We have enough problem determine the origins of Judaism and Christianity, as well as the origins of their respective scriptures (each individual book or each individual letter). The only evidences to support that the Qur'an and Islam existing before Muhammad's calling are nonexistence.

I'm saying that it's possible but not probable.

In regard to this. It's valuable to remember that before Islam, Allah was a member of a Pagan local pantheon, in fact Allah was the head of the Arab pantheon which also included the daughters of Allah. It was Islam which made Allah the only God, and this was a gradual process. Muhammad did not drop the bomb of monotheism on the Pagan Arabs until the right momentum, up until that point, he suggested to treat Allah as the head of the pantheon, or in other words encouraged a form of henotheism.

 

[arthra]

Caladan wrote:

In regard to this. It's valuable to remember that before Islam, Allah was a member of a Pagan local pantheon, in fact Allah was the head of the Arab pantheon which also included the daughters of Allah

My own view is that Allah is related to the Hebrew..

See the wikipedia article:

The term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ʾilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the [sole] deity, God" (ὁ θεὸς μόνος, ho theos monos).[8] Cognates of the name "Allāh" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.[9] Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural form (but functional singular) Elohim. The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac as used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply "God".[10] In the Sikh scriptures, Guru Granth Sahib, the term Allah (Punjabi: ਅਲਹ&#2625 is used 46 times respectively.

 

[Godobeyer]

Allah in the Quran ,did not deny that He sent messangers to the jews , Jesus (pbuh) is the last one .
Islam is mean : submission to God , all the messangers and prophets that God sent , they had this message .
which mean , all the messangers and prophets are muslims .
" the People of Book" the christains and jews had a especial case in Islam , which are considerate the closest religions to Islam ...the problem IS that the Islam considerate the judaism and chritianity are correputed by human desire, and the inverse the jews and christains considerate the Islam fake (copy/paste ) from their book .

 

[Godobeyer]

Caladan wrote:

In regard to this. It's valuable to remember that before Islam, Allah was a member of a Pagan local pantheon, in fact Allah was the head of the Arab pantheon which also included the daughters of Allah

My own view is that Allah is related to the Hebrew..

See the wikipedia article:

The term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ʾilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the [sole] deity, God" (ὁ θεὸς μόνος, ho theos monos).[8] Cognates of the name "Allāh" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.[9] Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural form (but functional singular) Elohim. The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac as used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply "God".[10] In the Sikh scriptures, Guru Granth Sahib, the term Allah (Punjabi: ਅਲਹ&#2625 is used 46 times respectively.

he knows that very well.