Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[loverOfTruth]

Likewise, people would have just sat slack-jawed as Muhammad chattered on about his meeting with Gabriel, as Gabriel would not be a part of the historical record.

Given that so much of Muhammad's stature rests on the backs of those before him, who were in no position to cast doubt on his claims, his role would, necessarily, be considerably diminished to the extent that his movement would have likely been still-borne.

Not really - Gabriel's history would have started from the Qur'an and not the OT/NT - that's all. Gabriel's name is just a reference in the scriptures.

 

[arthra]

Well in a generic sense as in submitting to God all the Prophets did that and certain Prophets were universal in our belief such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad...

Arguing about who is dependent on whom is to me not that weighty as they all depended on each other... Note in the Bible where it says

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus

~ Acts 3:13

Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned.'

~ The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2:136 - The Heifer)

The essence of all religions is the Love of God, and it is the foundation of all the sacred teachings.

It was the Love of God that led Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that strengthened Joseph in Egypt and gave to Moses courage and patience.

Through the Love of God, Christ was sent into the world with His inspiring example of a perfect life of self-sacrifice and devotion, bringing to men the message of Eternal Life.

It was the Love of God that gave Muhammad power to bring the Arabs from a state of animal degradation to a loftier state of existence.

God's Love it was that sustained the Báb and brought him to his supreme sacrifice, and made his bosom the willing target for a thousand bullets.

Finally, it was the Love of God that gave to the East Bahá'u'lláh, and is now sending the light of His teaching far into the West, and from Pole to Pole.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 82

 

[YmirGF]

Not really - Gabriel's history would have started from the Qur'an and not the OT/NT - that's all. Gabriel's name is just a reference in the scriptures.

Well, obviously. The point is, people would likely have thought he was madder than a hatter. It is not a given that Islam would have taken off, the way it did, had there been no reference points people were already aware of.

 

[Caladan]

Well, obviously. The point is, people would likely have thought he was madder than a hatter. It is not a given that Islam would have taken off, the way it did, had there been no reference points people were already aware of.

Precisely. contrary to the common belief some members here display, religions and prophets don't emerge out of a social vacuum. new religions emerge from existing social circumstances, and new prophets make social observations and statements about an existing cultural baggage.
Jews and Christians had a long history in this part of the world, the Pagan Henotheistic Arabs not only came in contact with them, but the cultures were interwoven in the Arabian landscape, the background of Judaism and other monotheistic faiths influenced Arabic culture greatly.

If there are members here who think that one day the Qur'an landed from the heavens containing a brand new revelation they are commiting a sin towards the understanding of history. in this case, that there were interesting developments in Arabic culture during the 6th century which are impossible to dismiss. not only that but they dismiss various Islamic traditions about the Hunafa who were actively preaching against pre-Islamic idolatry before the Qur'an itself came into being. even during what may be refered to as the Jahiliyah, Abrahamic traditions and their importance sinked very deeply into Arabic culture.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You have to remember that neither the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh), nor the Christian Bible is just one book or one work. They are actually collection of books, letters or poems, not necessarily written by the same person or even at the same time.

When you consider that, I believe it would absolutely stupid for anyone (who wrote them) to actually NAME THE RELIGION.

Are you saying that Christianity and Judaism is not what the founders(Jesus and Moses) of the religions preached it to be - but rather a man made version as it exists today ?

Just because neither founders didn't provide the NAMES FOR THE RELIGIONS, doesn't mean the religions don't exist or that they weren't earlier than Islam.

Neither did I say that nor did I mean that. The 'name of the religion' points were just an interesting observation.

The fact, is Islam (including the Qur'an) didn't exist prior to Muhammad's supposed calling, historically, grammatically or evidentially.

I think you are quite wrong on that. If you notice, I said Islam means 'Submission to (one) God' and that's what I meant when I said that all the prophets came with the message of Islam not the actual laws/ritual/scripture of Islam that the followers of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) abide by today.

Muslims who claimed Islam (and the Qur'an ) existed before Adam or Abraham, are just basing it upon baseless faith and their religious agenda to promote islam as the only true religion, hence propaganda and misinformation.

Really ? I guess then the Jews and the Christians should also be blameworthy of the same propaganda and misinformation when they claim to be of the 'Abrahamic' faith also. Because Prophet Abraham(pbuh) did not come to them with a scripture either.

 

[Caladan]

Really ? I guess then the Jews and the Christians should also be blameworthy of the same propaganda and misinformation when they claim to be of the 'Abrahamic' faith also. Because Prophet Abraham(pbuh) did not come to them with a scripture either.

Only you don't find many Jews or Christians who go about saying this.

 

[loverOfTruth]

If there are members here who think that one day the Qur'an landed from the heavens containing a brand new revelation they are commiting a sin towards the understanding of history.

I would never claim that given the Qur'an clearly states : "He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel." (Al-Qur'an 3:3)

However, what I am saying is since the OP is a 'hypothetical' question - so is my answer that the Qur'an and Islam could have easily existed without Christianity and Judaism. But we all know for a fact that in reality Christianity, Judaism and Islam exist. Hope this clarifies my point.

 

[Caladan]

I would never claim that given the Qur'an clearly states : "He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel." (Al-Qur'an 3:3)

However, what I am saying is since the OP is a 'hypothetical' question - so is my answer that the Qur'an and Islam could have easily existed without Christianity and Judaism. But we all know for a fact that in reality Christianity, Judaism and Islam exist. Hope this clarifies my point.

Clarifies? perhaps. But it doesn't really solve the problem posed by the OP. Because as we know, Judaism and Christianity were instrumental in setting the Qur'anic tradition in motion.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Clarifies? perhaps. But it doesn't really solve the problem posed by the OP. Because as we know, Judaism and Christianity were instrumental in setting the Qur'anic tradition in motion.

Note the question in the OP was : "So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?"
Again, the answer to that question is 'Yes'. But did Judaism and Christianity make life for the muslims little easier in terms of convincing people regarding the Islamic faith ? ... Sure - no problem with that.

 

[Caladan]

Note the question in the OP was : "So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?"

Same thing as what I mean.

Again, the answer to that question is 'Yes'.

Only if you use miracles to solve the question. it wouldn't fly in a university course about Muhammad, the Qur'an, or early Islam.

But did Judaism and Christianity make life for the muslims little easier in terms of convincing people regarding the Islamic faith ? ... Sure - no problem with that.

A little easier? the Hebrew Bible was the first to give the story of Abraham and other key figures of Islam centuries before Islamic tradition. the Jews brought the Abrahamic tradition with them into the Hejaz and Arabia where various highly interesting and historically important stages in Arabic religious thought took place as a result. Arabic Henotheism gradually took many traits from Judaism, Allah became the exclusive God of the Arabs as they dropped hundreds of other gods, and the Kaaba a central Pagan shrine became connected with Abraham and his progeny and where only one God, Allah, became the focus of worship wherease hundreds of other gods were worshipped alongside him before.

I am willing to give a respect to the tradition about the Hunafa and that there were Arabs who promoted the worship of Allah alone, and against the idolatry of the idols. but the question is, where did the influence for monotheism, Abraham, and other Biblical figures entered from?
the realistic and historical answer is very simple. the middle east was home to several highly influential monotheistic religions. these religions were part of the social fabric of middle eastern cultures, they even debated with each other long before Islam brought additional debates into the theological discourse.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Only if you use miracles to solve the question. it wouldn't fly in a university course about Muhammad, the Qur'an, or early Islam.

That is like saying Judaism couldn't have existed from nothing(no prior history) either unless you believe in miracles. Precisely my point.

A little easier? the Hebrew Bible was the first to give the story of Abraham and other key figures of Islam centuries before Islamic tradition. the Jews brought the Abrahamic tradition with them into the Hejaz and Arabia where various highly interesting and historically important stages in Arabic religious thought took place as a result. Arabic Henotheism gradually took many traits from Judaism, Allah became the exclusive God of the Arabs as they dropped hundreds of other gods, and the Kaaba a central Pagan shrine became connected with Abraham and his progeny and where only one God, Allah, became the focus of worship wherease hundreds of other gods were worshipped alongside him before.

I am willing to give a respect to the tradition about the Hunafa and that there were Arabs who promoted the worship of Allah alone, and against the idolatry of the idols. but the question is, where did the influence for monotheism, Abraham, and other Biblical figures entered from?
the realistic and historical answer is very simple. the middle east was home to several highly influential monotheistic religions. these religions were part of the social fabric of middle eastern cultures, they even debated with each other long before Islam brought additional debates into the theological discourse.

Please note that idol worship (multiple gods) were prevalent in Arabia when Islam came into practice. And also that so many of the historic events are described significantly differently in the Qur'an than in the OT/NT. Just because Adam and other prophets existed in pre-Islamic history doesn't mean all the historical accounts depicted in the Qur'an related to them are exactly the same (even though some are similar).

 

[Caladan]

That is like saying Judaism couldn't have existed from nothing(no prior history) either unless you believe in miracles. Precisely my point.

I never said that Judaism existed forever and ever. if we go back enough in time, back to the Bronze Age, we can create a picture of a native Israelite religion which gradually develops from a Canaanite polytheistic and henotheistic landscape. I fully embrace the fact that religions evolve.
This thread asks about origins and influences for Islam. in this case from the two great monotheistic faiths which have existed in the time: Judaism and Christianity.

Please note that idol worship (multiple gods) were prevalent in Arabia when Islam came into practice. And also that so many of the historic events are described significantly differently in the Qur'an than in the OT/NT. Just because Adam and other prophets existed in pre-Islamic history doesn't mean all the historical accounts depicted in the Qur'an related to them are exactly the same (even though some are similar).

I am aware that the Qur'anic versions or Islamic tradition in general may contain a different twist to known Biblical stories. but one point a reader of the Qur'an can't miss is that much of the material is hardly as elaborative as it is in the original Biblical version. this in itself should gives us several important indications to the sources and inspiration for later Islamic development and tradition.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I never said that Judaism existed forever and ever. if we go back enough in time, back to the Bronze Age, we can create a picture of a native Israelite religion which gradually develops from a Canaanite polytheistic and henotheistic landscape. I fully embrace the fact that religions evolve.
This thread asks about origins and influences for Islam. in this case from the two great monotheistic faiths which have existed in the time: Judaism and Christianity.


I am aware that the Qur'anic versions or Islamic tradition in general may contain a different twist to known Biblical stories. but one point a reader of the Qur'an can't miss is that much of the material is hardly as elaborative as it is in the original Biblical version. this in itself should give us several important indications.

Back to the very first thing I have stated. Islam would have evolved as in Islam -2 without Judaism and Christianity but it still would have existed.

 

[Caladan]

Back to the very first thing I have stated. Islam would have evolved as in Islam -2 without Judaism and Christianity but it still would have existed.

Where would it get the traditions about Abraham, Noah, Adam, Moses? the People of Israel? David? Solomon? the Exodus? Parables which originated in the Talmud? even stories about fallen angels Harut and Marut?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Where would it get the traditions about Abraham, Noah, Adam, Moses? the People of Israel? David? Solomon? the Exodus? Parables which originated in the Talmud? even stories about fallen angels Harut and Marut?

From 'God' where it all started and from where all the Prophets got it. Qur'an didn't get it from Talmud - Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) got it from Allah(God), the same way Moses(pbuh) got it from God at his time and the same way Jesus(pbuh) got it from God at his time.

 

[Caladan]

From 'God' where it all started and from where all the Prophets got it. Qur'an didn't get it from Talmud - Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) got it from Allah(God), the same way Moses(pbuh) got it from God at his time and the same way Jesus(pbuh) got it from God at his time.

You don't seriously expect any of us (save a few Muslim members) to accept this answer, do you?
When I write my postgraduate assignments, I can't say what I want. I have to base my thesis on facts, on academic references, and present it as something that can be accepted in a peer reviewed environment. Given, I understand it takes more effort than saying 'God did it'. But it is also more serious and respected, more importantly it is not flatly rejected.
Similarly, I expect members in an on line community to respect us enough not to use these kind of tactics, but to give an articulate answer, based on actual information, which doesn't require us to accept miracle solutions. It's what makes a discussion more interesting and relevant.

 

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Where would it get the traditions about Abraham, Noah, Adam, Moses? the People of Israel? David? Solomon? the Exodus? Parables which originated in the Talmud? even stories about fallen angels Harut and Marut?

Hi, in Judaism Harut and Marut are fallen angels?

 

[loverOfTruth]

You don't seriously expect any of us (save a few Muslim members) to accept this answer, do you?
When I write my postgraduate assignments, I can't say what I want. I have to base my thesis on facts, on academic references, and present it as something that can be accepted in a peer reviewed environment. Given, I understand it takes more effort than saying 'God did it'. But it is also more serious and respected, more importantly it is not flatly rejected.
Similarly, I expect members in an on line community to respect us enough not to use these kind of tactics, but to give an articulate answer, based on actual information, which doesn't require us to accept miracle solutions. It's what makes a discussion more interesting and relevant.

I guess you don't believe in the story of God speaking to Moses(pbuh) as described in Exodus 3 either then ? And many more other stories related to God sending angel Gabriel to Prophets and so on. Not sure which part of OT you believe in then. Finally, I am not sure why we are even having this discussion if you don't even believe in God's revelation.

And if you do believe in the stories I have stated above - Could you please provide the 'academic references' for God speaking to Moses(pbuh) ?

 

[Caladan]

I guess you don't believe in the story of God speaking to Moses(pbuh) as described in Exodus 3 either then ? And many more other stories related to God sending angel Gabriel to Prophets and so on. Not sure which part of OT you believe in then. Finally, I am not sure why we are even having this discussion if you don't even believe in God's revelation.

Then you don't seem to understand this thread at all. Or at least you avoid addressing the OP on a level which an educated, serious members can count as objective and relevant.

The Question in the OP is simple, it explores the influences for the emergence for an absolute Arabic monotheism, what we call today Islam. its an interesting historical question. What was the brewing ground in which Muhammad lived, and from which eventually the Qur'an and Islam were forged out of.

This isn't an Islamic forum, you can't expect us to embrace a 'God did it' type of answers for interesting historical questions, questions which we rather solve by doing our homework and reading interesting information about. 'Allah did it' is not an interesting answer, and it takes no effort to make.

 

[Caladan]

Hi, in Judaism Harut and Marut are fallen angels?

Its a complicated question. Short answer is that there is material in the apocrypha which discusses these stories in some detail.